Sydney vs Melbourne equals LA vs NY

Anthony Bourdain doesn’t think much of Sydney but loves Melbourne. The New York Times restaurant critic Patricia Wells seems to agree that Melbourne’s Flower Drum is the best Chinese restaurant in the world (for its Peking duck at least).Now the LA Times food critic S. Irene Virbila, is wading in to the debate rating Sydney as one of the best places in the world to eat.The divides between the hometowns of the protagonists of this debate perhaps illustrates the cultural differences between Melbourne and Sydney. What Melbourne does best is intimate little underground joints. Melbourne is establishment with dark, smoke filled rooms. Typically you turn up a laneway, down another and up into an attic/down into basement. Coming from London I love this kind of stuff. As does Bourdain coming from NY. And I presume Wells likes this as she took a similar route down an alley and up some stairs to the Flower Drum. Or at least she really likes duck.In contrast, the LA Times lauds Sydney for being able to do what many restaurants in the world have failed to do: create great restaurants with even better views. Traditionally we’ve been suckered into enjoying the view and playing with the food rather than eating it.So here we have it in Sydney. Icebergs overlooking Bondi Beach together with Sean’s Panorama. Sailors Thai, Bill’s, the Book Kitchen, Longrain, Marque Restaurant, Billy Kwong, Pier, Fish Face, The Boathouse on Blackwattle Bay, Tetsuya’s.Neil Perry’s Rockpool failed to meet the list!Sure Sydney has good eating and we’ve enjoyed most of those joints. But Sydney is expensive. And Melbourne in affordable at most joints. When we rate restaurants there has to be a relationship between the quality of food and the affordability for the average (f—die) punter.For any American visiting Australia or Brit our food at the top end is very cheap despite the fact that the local dollar is overvalued. And that is why for them it is perhaps so good.But I live in Melbourne and when I have to spend my hard earned cash I know I’ll be looking for value or money. Well, most of the time anyway.

225 Comments

  1. The rivalry between Sydney and Melbourne is an old one that goes back over 150 years.
    Both cities like to boast about what is better about their city over the other.
    While Melbourne and Sydney hold various virtues over one another, I would say that the greatest virtues of all relate to geography.

    Melbourne’s greatest fortune is the fact it experienced a major Gold Rush at a critical stage of its development. The Gold Rush propelled Melbourne forward and enabled it to build a solid foundation and grow to become for a time the largest city in Australia and reputedly the “richest in the world”. A title Sydney has never held.

    Sydney’s greatest virtue is of course its harbour. While there is nothing quite like striking it rich, the bounty of the harbour never ran out, it’s like the gift that keeps on giving.

    How Sydney must have felt when Melbourne raced passed it. That resentment still survives today. If it wasn’t for gold Melbourne would be no competition for Sydney and would be in the pack with the other 3 large capitals. Sydney would likely be even bigger and host most of the events and institutions it covets in Melbourne.

    Melbourne is frustrated because no matter what it does or how hard it tries, Sydney will still have “The Harbour”, (and the rest of the geographical package), and all that comes with it. Even Sydney’s milder climate relates to geography, though it isn’t the advantage Sydney says it is unless you believe it.

    There are of course other virtues Sydney holds over Melbourne but nothing so significant as its geography. In fact if you were to compare each city just in terms of their human activity, environment and legacy and not for what nature has provided then Melbourne looks far more attractive.

    As the two cities grow the geographical advantage of Sydney may not be so strong. For example, the appeal of the world’s alpha cities has little to do with their natural beauty and much to do with their human element.

    Melbourne’s geography while not as beautiful as Sydney’s has proven to be more practical. Melbourne’s sewage treatment has been much better largely due to geography. Melbourne is a much better city for bikes, Melbourne’s geography is better when building roads and other infrastructure and that saves money or gets you more for your dollar and so it goes. Every cloud has a silver lining.

    The other thing about Melbourne’s geography is that its potential has often been understated and under realized. There is room for improvement and growth. Port Phillip Bay is like a pair of big shoes that Melbourne’s feet were too small for but the way Melbourne uses its bay will change a lot this century. While Sydney’s beautiful harbour is shrinking relative to the city around it.

    If you were to put Melbourne in Sydney’s setting you would create a city better than either of them. That’s what I think…

  2. To Melbourne…. Please,

    You are fairly typical of the type of Sydneysider who tries too hard to justify Sydney’s shortcomings while expressing an attitude of superiority toward other cities.

    You claim that Sydney lacks planning because it is so much older than Melbourne and there was not the technology to plan better back then. San Francisco, Washington and even Parramatta are the same age as Sydney and they are properly planned. You will even find older cities like Philadelphia, Baltimore and New York, just to name a few, that have better planning than Sydney. As for Australian state capitals, Hobart is only 15 years younger than Sydney and it was planned. In fact Sydney is the only capital not properly planned. If there is a reason for this it might be because Sydney was not settled with the intent of founding a city unlike Melbourne. I don’t know if the other penal colonies in Australia were intended to become cities or not but in any case they still executed a plan, unlike Sydney…

    Melbourne was founded nearly 50 years after Sydney and within 30 years it was larger and richer. That rapid growth is something Sydney has never known and yet Melbourne was able to cope with it and plan as it grew, though there would have been stresses.

    You also said that Sydney’s transport system was established well before Melbourne’s and that is the excuse for its problems. Melbourne had the first steam train in Australia and its rail network also developed faster than Sydney’s. Melbourne’s network was also electrified first. Sydney did have a tram before Melbourne but it had tracks that protruded from the road and damaged the wheels of other road users and was closed after 5 years. Great plan that one. After the trains Sydney’s tram network did develop a little earlier and faster than Melbourne’s trams. Part of the reason Sydney’s trains were slower to develop was because the tram network was working well. Sydney did eventually have a tram network larger than Melbourne’s is even today, but then Sydney ripped it up…??? How sad it is that we can no longer enjoy the beauty of Sydney Harbour from the window of a tram? It must have been a great ride.

    You mentioned how Perth’s transport network is great but joked that it doesn’t have to handle many people, “36” people in fact. Perth’s network is good and much of it built recently. Perth is currently leading the way with public transport in Australia. Of course Perth does have healthy finances but it still shows good planning and while its network doesn’t have to handle as many people as Sydney’s, it’s is all to scale. Just like Sydney’s network doesn’t have to handle as many people as New York’s, London’s, Hong Kong’s, Paris’s, Tokyo’s… etc, but theirs work better than Sydney’s and probably Melbourne’s too.

    You mentioned Melbourne’s sporting calendar and bar scene but said if you wanted that kind of thing you would move to Europe where it is done right. Is it not done right in Melbourne? A London based company rates Melbourne the best city in the world to hold a sports event and while I don’t have figures, by all accounts our bars are comparable to the some of the best.
    Why is it that in the 90’s the MotoGP is left Victoria for Sydney over tobacco sponsorship but soon returned again to Victoria where it remains? Is that because you did it right and we didn’t?

    As for dazzling skylines and tall buildings, Sydney may have more buildings higher than 90m but according to skyscraperpage.com Sydney’s tallest building is only the 11th tallest in Australia including 2 under construction. I personally don’t mind tall skylines but they are becoming quite common, just like shopping centers, they don’t same appeal they used to have.

    Melbourne… please, don’t try so hard, you don’t do Sydney any favors in the eyes of those who know the facts. I write this because there are obviously people who read all this and might be tempted to believe what you say. You don’t want to sound like Paul Keating when he said, “If you don’t live in Sydney, you’re just camping out”. No other Australian likes that kind of attitude and foreigners can see it for what it is.

    You live in a beautiful city; it doesn’t have to be perfect…

  3. Thank you all again, I will definitely plan on getting a spot for the fireworks early. And Sam, thanks for your input also, I would love to explore outside of the city proper, maybe do some hiking in the Blue mountains, etc. If I had to choose one of the places you mentioned, which would you suggest?

  4. Just a comment to add. I am from Western Sydney and I notice that people think Sydney is all about the harbour the beaches and the land marks. This is truly its face, however one should not forget that Sydney is truly diverse (some would also say divided). In the west of Sydney you have the Southern Highlands to the South West, the Blue Mountains / Nepean River to the west, and Hawkesbury Valley / River to the North West. Beautiful and amazing countryside and rivers. You also have the second oldest city in Australia in Parramatta (a mini-city on its own), and Sydney Olympic Park (a 640 hectare site). If you want to try authentic and cheap dining from migrant communities, go to places like Cabramatta, Fairfield and Bankstown. If you have never tried a Turkish coffee, I would recommend it. This coffee has more histroy than the latte. There is more to Sydney than just the blonde bimbo that everybody perceives.

  5. Oh yeah, GO HAWKS!!!!

  6. Try to be in Melbourne for Feburary and March, the weather is HOT and the best place to be is St Kilda, with the festivals and F1 Grand Prix on. Even if you don’t like the F1, the atmosphere is brilliant! Pity you’ll miss Grand Final week in Melbourne, it’s buzzing at the moment!

  7. Your welcome anytime, just for piece of mind! if your going to the new years eve fireworks i would recommend turning up early at around
    3-4pm and grab a spot with a vantage view of the harbour and opera house. Last year there was 1million people that turned up on the foreshores to watch the fireworks and i garuantee that you’ll enjoy every minute of it.

  8. Thank you so much for your input! I finally decided I couldn’t decide, and am going to both! Will spend New Years Eve in Sydney for the spectacular fireworks, really looking forward to that!

    Thanks again!

  9. Oh and another thing which i forgot to mention for “melsyd”, between October to Jan Sydney holds cultural and arts festivals by the foreshores during summer time. If you like opera, all top international artists play in the opera house and usually sold out within weeks! a great way to take your partner to end a perfect day.

  10. I totally agree with the comment above, everyone has different taste and thoughts, yes melb has more of a european feel, easier to get around even though it doesnt pose as the big kahuna as sydney the lay out of melb is very friendly to locals and visitors. Nightlife in Melb is great, most clubs are located in alley ways this gives a feel like your in the city if Prauge, Czech Republic. Melb, host many sporting events if your a sports fan.

    Sydney, is the oldest, very busy and covers 3 times (a guess) the size of paris and london, the views are spectacular, if you like bushwalking there are endless of national parks nearby, beaches are only 15mins away, if you like the adventure and chaotic scene then “sydney” is for you. Sydney is very much alive and events around the city are endless, alot of my friends from around the world have loved sydney so much that they cant get enough of it, a few have actually immirgrated to syd and enjoying what the city has to offer.
    Public transport in and around the city is relatively great and improving to cater for everyone. I stayed for only 1week but decided to stay for an extra 2months to get the real feel of sydney and i must say it was an excellent decision.

    Hope this piece of info helps you out “melsyd” and good luck with your travels.

  11. Yeah, Sydney if you like the warmer weather, but it is more humid. Depends where you’re from, Melbourne is starting to get warmer now spring is here and even winter is reletavely warm compared with similar latitudes in the northern hemisphere. Average for melbourne in winter is about 12-13C, Sydney 17-18C (rough guess), yet pretty similar for the rest of the year.

    Melbourne is more european, has a greater sporting culture and has a better music/arts scene. Sydney is more american and has better scenery and touristy stuff. Both cities share similar qualities in a lot of ways, it’s just one does a couple of things better than the other.

    Hope you enjoy wherever you choose, I’m sure you will!

  12. AHHHHHHHHHHH, just want to know where to go, melbourne or sydney, only have 9 days – 12/26/08. love the warm weather, should I choose sydney?

  13. In response to Robert,
    a ruke of thumb is not to directly compare the transport system of Melbourne to Sydney. As you mentioned, Melbourne is planned out (in other words spaced out) whereas Sydney is squeezed espescially at the CBD. This in combination with Sydney having a transport system established well before Melboune would clearly present problems.

    As i stated in a previous comment, Commuters in Melbourne are well and truly below the numbers of commuters travlling to and from the city in Sydney. So again, its obvious there system would work, much like Perth who too have a brilliant transport system, though they may have a commuter peak of 36 people in the morning. lol.

    I also find it interesting that Sydney defines peak hour in multiple hours, which defeats the purpose of the name, and remains the only city in the country that does this.

    Personally peak hour, is every effing hour on the western line =(

  14. I have a mate of mine that works for the mayor of sydney and she forwarded the site: http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/

    I had a look at it and i reckon transforming Sydney will a great thing for its residents and visitors alike.

    Well done NSW, its a pat on the back for you and looks very promising, lets be positive here and make our city renowned for its features.

    Melbourne have identified themselves in so many ways, their Mayor actually looks after his people and i am sure we can learn from them as they learn from us.

    Have a quick look at it whether you like it or not at least our Mayor does care for the people of Sydney and NSW.

    Hey darkhawk, i like the layout of melbourne and its very people friendly especially your transport system which surpasses ours up here, well done to you guys and im sure both city will be up there with great things to come.

  15. Melbourne...please

    As much as i’d hate to say, i personally have not seen or heard almost every plan that has putforward by person [im too lazy to scroll up and check author loooool~] Although it seems a perfect plan, to me it lacks realism by quite a long shot.
    Making George street car free? That’s beyond absurd. George street is by far the busiest street and if there was such a thing, the number one street in the country. Stretching from Central, cutting straight through the CBD till it hits circular quay has invesments worth heavy millions. Cutting such a vital road will be chaos for our already chaotic road plan. Widening streets, possible. Expanding town hall is obviously a certain, any place in Australia will expand given time.
    However there are two ticks on the list that was given. the 1st, i recall the parks and more greener look Sydney being planed for the future. (which personally sucks, as id rather higher, taller, just more buildings in the city; as to make it look larger.) And the second was the arena. Ironically the suggestion for this was put forward as “jealousy” instigated by our melboure counterparts, saw that more international/ world events were being staged at Melb ratther tan Sydney. Thus the crumbling entertainment center will be brought down, and in its ashes, will come a state of the art stadium, though i highly think it would not match the grandeur of the MCG given the space that is given to develop the stadium.

    So now when an event occurs in Sydney, the spectacular lights of the city will bedazzle the audience. And unlike Melb. Sydney’s CBD has the tenth most populous skyscrapers above 90m for a city in the world. More to marvel at.

    And i need to include that more trams are being planned for sydney. lol. However, being the traditional up myself sydneysider, we dont call them trams. It’s simply called ‘light rail’

    LOOOOOOOL
    gees at sydney, even i have to say.

  16. Sounds promising, Kennett made an outline for Melbourne’s expansion while in office and we now have the docklands development and fed square. He was brilliant at instilling pride in our city and I rekon we are on the up due to his great work. He’s doing it again at Hawthorn (WE’RE GONNA SMASH THE CATS NEXT WEEK!!!!!)

    I really hope this goes ahead so us Melbournians can again try and outdo you guys, and we can boast about our great cities to everyone around the world even more!

    CARN THE HAWKS!!!!!

  17. I once saw a site that sydney will be revamped, which includes expanding darling harbour, adding more national parks around the city, removing the overpass which currently runs above circular quay, expanding town hall and make it people friendly by adding more restaurants, cafes and an entertainment arena.

    Transform George st and making it permanently for pedestrians, the removal of the darling harbour overpass freeway and placing it underground, All streets around Sydney will be widened.

    I’ve also heard that Circular Quay & Darling Harbour will be transformed dramatically and make it a cultural hub with cultural precincts made by artist and designers from around the world which is to outdo the federation square that Melbourne has.

    Wow! if this is true that is great for Sydney, its about time we got rid of Morris Dilemma what a tosser and one of the worst premiers ever.

    “Melbourne….please” since your a man of knowledge do you know anything this? i cant seem to find the website for this info as its rather new.

    cheers

  18. Melbourne...please

    Yes. i cant agree more to the latter of the comment prior to this. What a pathetic time for Melbournians to stand up and attack Sydney. In the midst of a NSW state heading into recession whilst Vic is at a stage where it is enjoying the perks of a healthy eonomy, it would seem obvious to strike when its at its weakest. In response to the SMH article [found in rant made 09.15.08] that data which ironically was gathered by a smelbourne, is at most a load of misleading shit. And the winner is Melbourne? pft/ It is going great at the moment, but it won’t last. And that quote where Melb may be bigger than Sydney, is beyond misleading i cant emphasize my anger and why they’d mention that. Clearly producing demographic figures 50 years from now if the environment in both cities remains the same is bullshit.

    Gees. just stop the so called arguement. It would be ore interesting when Sydney booms again, which has been predicted to start around 2010, then all the benefits will flow, and the major injections will catapult our standings and redeem its currently battered image which gave melbournians a stupid perception that Sydney was weakening and that it was possibe to over take it.

    Though i do have to say, im am in awe with crown casino. Yes one of a very few things i admit is better. though i must include that a second casino is on its way to sydney aha.

  19. Sydney is the hot chick with prestige looks while Melbourne is the ugly girl with braces hahaha….. born and bred in Melbourne here.

    Sorry Melbourne but i prefer Sydney, although Melbourne has got a lot to offer you just don’t cut it with scenery that you can look at everyday of the week. I live at Watsons Bay and a 360degree view of the harbour and ocean outside of my house, i can easily access the national parks by bicycle and by foot, harbour ferries is just down the road and traveling time is only 15mins into circular quay and darling harbour.

    Wouldn’t it be great if Sydney had the F1 Grand Prix, AFL Grand Finals, Melbourne CUP (if Sydney had that, it would be called The Sydney Cup), Melbourne has the sporting prestige but only held once a year, Sydney may not have the sports but has 24/7 natural beauty which Melbourne will never have.

    Sydney may not be the most livable city in the world but its right up there with London, Paris and New York as a Global City, When Sydney puts on a show the whole world sees it, “All Show but no Substance” as some people may say pfffffffffffftttt! the only people mention that quote is people from Victoria and most of them havent been to Sydney, never left Melbourne or even traveled outside the country.

    Sydney will rise again after this little depression she’s having but when she does, she’ll do it in great style pushing Melbourne aside once again.

  20. nicely said “melbourne…please” … i love sydney and melb because of its diverse offerings, diversity is great for this big country of ours. I once lived in the big smoke and loved every minute of it but had to move back down to melb because of work.

    Melb seems to hype itself up all the time like its the fucking capital city of planet earth living with its glory, its not the fashion capital, it only named itself that title because of cheap prices.

    Sydney is the only largest financial city in OZ which has the RBA, ASX, headquarters of 90 banks with 500 multinational corporations, caltex, commbank and the list goes on and on.

    Yes, its true sydney is in turmoil because of the state government and maybe its melb turn to shine. But, sydney will shine again dont you worry about that.

  21. Melbourne...please

    Wow, i must say the recent articles on the daily telegraph and SMH here in Sydney have been rude awakenings. “Melbourne, bigger than Sydney by 2056”
    Uh, alright. since when do such futuristic statistics underpin the divide between the two cities? If Australia becomes a republic state, bids are on Sydney to host the centre of political affairs as opposed to Canberra. This would without a doubt exert more people/jobs/income into Sydney.
    There is a noticeable gap between the two:

    Sydney, the one that has it. &
    Melbourne, the one that wants to have it.

    Yes, i must admit having been raised my life here in Sydney, what it would be like living in Melbourne; where the city functions properly, the bar scene hails and the iconic sporting events take place. I would love to be in that scene. But unfortunately, if i wanted a city with these features, i’d move to Europe; where it’s done right!
    O, but Melb. is the fashion capital?
    REALLY??
    I’m pretty sure that even sydneysiders would agree thats the case. Why? Cause its bloody cheaper than Sydney thats why.
    Leading on to another point, Sydney is too expensive, Melbourne is affordable. What do you expect, when the demand in Sydney has been restricted by supply. Prices rise, investors look elsewhere, O here we have a cheap hole i.e. melbourne, thus lets move here.
    Sydney is flawed by its over density whilst Melb is planned. All this tells us is that there is a great significant gap between the booms and upbringings of the cities. Sydney is the premier and oldest city. It didnt have the technology back then to build a sustainable and effecient city like Melbourne which started to boom way after Sydney established itself as the biggest city.
    Clearly, i have been biased towards Sydney, but think about it guys if we (SYD) had the bar, food, fashion scene all for ourselves, then what would be the point of calling this country Australia, when really it would be Sydney. I think its great that there are other things outside of Sydney that can be marvelled at.
    Tourism in Melb overtook that of Sydney’s. Does it mean people are tired of sydney and that Melb is better? No. it means okay, we’ve done everything Sydney has to offer, could there be anything else the country has to offer? Bring in Melbourne.
    Sydney is currently in turmoil. It seems the ‘it’ city hasn’t got the grasps to support itself. Public transport (i am a uni student, travelling 2.5 hours everyday on the bloody trains) is beyond pathetic, the smelly people, and the amount of times i have to stand up to get home all the way to the other side of Sydney is a pain. Goo Melb, your brilliant transport system. How about trying to manage the near million that uses the system each day here in Sydney. All these problems are furthermore exacerbated by the sh*t lines of government strings we’ve had. Finally, to all the people that left Sydney, and flooded cheap yes i shall say cheap cities like brisbane and melb. thanks 🙂 Most people see it as bad, but really the poor people are leaving, us all the more reason for sydney to bask into an exclusive allure of unrivalled prestige.

    Sydney is going through its depression stage whilst melbourne is at an upswing. Thus it is expected that Syd. would have problems and it too is expected that Melb. would enjoy benefits. But its called the life cycle.

    The time is ticking, and the time till sydney goes into its inevitable drastic boom draws nearer, and as the sydney boom have shown in the past, when a world city like syd booms, it booms in a big way. Watch out Melbourne =P

  22. Leave Ronk out of this, his got his own opinions and so does everyone else.

    ITS OVER

  23. Hey, great name Victoria!

    Seems like Ronk has had a few friends join the conversation, nice ploy dickhead! I wonder if these pseudonyms are the voices in his head.

    As I did say that I will ignore Ronks comments, this is directed at his other personalities: NICE TRY! Who’s showing their true self (selves?) now?

    Maybe I’m wrong, who knows, there’s no way of proving it. It’s just odd that since I said I was ignoring Ronk everyone’s come out of the woodwork and started having a go at me. That’s fine, I’m sure that someone cares what you think of me, I certainly don’t. Why would I, to you I’m only a name with a few words attatched. And what have I said that has gotten up the nose of so many people all of a sudden? Surely telling Ronk that our debate was OVER couldn’t have been construed as being directed to everyone else? No-one had a go at Ryan (post #172) for calling us Melbournian’s ““self indulgent” cunts”, which is much more offensive than admitting that I’ve had a couple of beers!

    I’ve checked my email before posting this. I started typing after post 200 and “Ed” has suggested setting up my own thread. I will do this so people can stop wasting everyone elses time with pointless comments because they are either Catholic or have no sense of humour. Even Custardcrazy suggested this a while back so it probably is a fantastic idea! Have a go at me, debate the topics I put forward, whatever. Just have fun! I won’t respond to anyone on here without something relevant to say on the topic of “Melbourne vs Sydney” out of respect, so if you have something to say, do it somewhere else.

    By the way, I’m totally sober! 🙂

  24. LOOLZ well said Sean. Darkhawk really needs help with his drinking and alot of it, maybe some anger management also.

    darkhawk quotes “only the great can be arrogant” ?? darkhawk the GREAT ??? wow thats an understatement, so what are you great of? great of being drunk? or great of being a total dickwad?.

    I’m sure you fall in those categories easily.

  25. I think this comment thread has srayed too far from th eoriginal and is strayimng away from the object of this blog. Darkhawk, why don’t you set up something on blogger to continue the debate. I can provide you a file with this original post and comments to get you started if you like. Let me know via email.

    Cheers

  26. dont worry too much about darkhawk, he reminds me of this little kid in high school always attracting attention to himself abit like willie mason. “ITS OVER”

    darkhawk raves on so much that he turns to alcohol to type something on here bahahahha, great way to advertise our great cities darkhawk. “ITS OVER”

    you need to get laid mate or are you having erection problems because your blood alcohol level is always .05 sheeeesh your a tosser in so many levels. “ITS OVER”

    ITS OVER ITS OVER ITS OVER ITS OVER ITS OVER ITS OVER..

  27. darkhawk is going to pour petrol in this fire he says??? hahahahhahaha
    your always drunk and end up pouring the petrol on yourself.

  28. When was being passionate considered childish? As I said earlier, I’m having a laugh here, so won’t apologise! Also, I never said I hate Sydney! In fact, I’ve defended it in earlier posts and acknowledged it’s good points when they are brought up. We should be proud of our two cities, rivalry has been integral to both cities excellence and I shall pour as much petrol on this fire as I can!

    Only the great can be arrogant! GO HAWKS!!!!

  29. Eeeeeeew bite you darkhawk? you’d wreak with alcohol, nevertheless both cities are great. In the past wasnt Melb also down in the dumps, maybe its Sydneys turn, every city in the world has its ups and downs.

    Just because Melbourne is going to overtake Sydney in 20years time, and hearing you rambling on “melb is soooooo great” is like hearing a year 8 school kid.

    Do you hate sydneyso much that you couldnt cut it up here or is it the fact that someone did something to you whilst you were up here???

    darkhawk, your showing your true side how self indulgent you are, your sounding like an arrogant american everytime you write on this site.

    Im from melb and support both cities, the only city to show its arrogance is people from melb and its definitely overtaken from sydneys attitude.

    EVERYONE …… AS DARKHAWK WOULD SAY “ITS OVER, KAPUT, IM ALWAYS RIGHT”

  30. Darkhawk, you have produced no evidence to support any of your points and refuted none of my points, nor even attempted to, other than to say “bulls….”. So don’t pretend it’s not obvious who is dumping his crap here.

  31. OK, I’ve had a few beers, but drunken truth is still the truth. BITE ME!

  32. I just realised what Lauren said in her post, “were as melb is more of an indoor scenery with indoor sports etc.” (grammar and spelling not corrected).

    I didn’t realise Aussie Rules was an indoor sport! Or cricket. Or soccer. Or F1 racing…. WAIT! Basketball is an indoor sport and Sydney doesn’t have a team anymore (the Spirit is still West Sydney Razorbacks as far as I’m concerned!)! Might be onto something there, Lauren!

  33. I hope this gets by the spam filter but it’s a great article:

    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/09/13/1220857897713.html

    smh stands for Sydney Morning Herald. They have no option but to concede! They finish the article with a typical Sydneysider rebuttal (see my earlier formula, then minus 100!) and an outdated Paul Keating quote. No denying the facts, though!

  34. I’ll drink to that, Ken! 😀

  35. I agree with Subs and Ken, both cities are awesome. Sydney has more of an outdoor scenery and alot more outdoor festivals and sports, were as melb is more of an indoor scenery with indoor sports etc.

    Ive spoken with alot of sydney people and they like going down to melbourne and vice versa.

    Sydney and Melbourne share the trophy with rude and arrogant people but thats the way life is everyone.

    Sydney and Melbourne all the way wooohooooo.

  36. I reckon both of you need to have a few beers and laugh it out but you’ll probably punch each other out LOL.

    I am also a Melbourne bloke and love living in Sydney and i do agree with “Subs” of what this city has to offer, yeah so what if they dont have the Grand Prix, Kooyong Classics and Australian Open, its only held once a year but there is more to life than dreading over those things and the cafe life, I’ve met so many awesome Sydneysiders and yes they are really nice people.

    A few have mentioned that Sydney is a dirty place??? WTF ?? Melb is no different it has its dirty parts in the city and the surrounding suburbs, Vic nearly went bankrupt because of its politicians (wankers) and i hope that NSW doesnt also now that morris iemma is gone, hopefully NSW will recover.

    Melbourne and Sydney has its fair share of violence , for example, with those raving gangs going around Melbourne with samurai swords cutting each other up about 2years ago (correct me if im wrong), the other night in Melb nightclub some bloke got his head kicked in because of an argument and another guy had his throat slashed and this is in one night.

    Sydney has its violence also because of poor police funding and because of this down fall they wont be able to perform their job.

    Its not the people to blame in each city its what the government makes of it.

    “Darkhawk” your a funny fella but stop ya drinking mate LOL, i’ll shout ya a couple of fosters one day mate.

    Im a Melbourne bloke through and through but love Sydney more and more everyday. Were all aussies here no matter where you came from.

  37. LOL
    You were happy to reply within 24 hours when no evidence was required, check the time stamps! And you were the one spewing forth slander: “Don’t worry about Darkhawk’s ravings, he’s just peeved at the world because I comprehensively demolished and refuted his historically absurd, irrelevant and bigoted attacks on Catholics”. Totally wrong! Stop with the bullshit comments, no one is interested.

    The only reason I’m not adding to the argument is because no one is listening, and you obviously can’t handle the idea of being wrong. The only “gross embarrassment” I feel is for you.

    Sorry everybody, but this is the last time I will say to Ronk IT’S OVER! Therefore I will ignore all comments made by Ronk henceforth, unless it’s to support a Melbourne vs Sydney argument. I will hold no grudges, religion is the main cause of war and we’ve proven that. We’re both Melbournians and love the place, so maybe he isn’t such a bad guy after all 🙂

  38. Well excuse me for having more important things to do than someone who apparently spends all day and night sitting at his computer getting drunk and composing mendacious rants against anyone who declines to share his irrational religious beliefs. You make dozens of demonstrably false allegations, then unilaterally declare the debate “over”, then you have the gall to claim that it’s not you but me who is being a coward and not showing “respect”! You’re unable to think of one piece of evidence to support your calumnies, claiming it’s because you “won’t waste time on the subject” on which you subjected us to numerous extensive rants, yet you still find time to abuse me for pointing out the facts. I never said I believed in Catholicism, my points are not a matter of what I or anyone believes but simple objective facts which you are trying to ignore the existence of, to try to hide your gross embarrassment, because you foolishly denied and misrepresented them.

  39. Very well written, Alan! Nice work.

  40. i think both city has got something to offer, sydney and melb has got its pros and cons.

    im a melb bloke but been living in sydney for 10years now and love the city because of its natural beauty and fast paced but in my opnion sydneysiders arent that all rude, melb people are the same when it comes to rudeness both are just as bad as its each other.

    both cities learn from each other in the past and still learning from each other as i type this.

    we should all appreciate the cities that we both have no matter what and enjoy what its got to offer for everyone.

  41. What I don’t like about Sydney is not the city its self but its attitude towards Melbourne. I know there are plenty of people from Sydney who do like Melbourne but “Melbourne Bashing” is a common sport in Sydney and has been for as long as I can remember. Yes, I can already hear a collective “We don’t care about Melbourne and the rivalry is only a Melbourne thing” but your now ex-premier had a crack when he could and so does your media. Q. Why do they do this? A. because it is popular and it wins votes and sells papers, etc. Sydneysiders love it but don’t want to of admit it. In a display of arrogance they like to pretend they are too good for such comparisons, just another way taking a shot at Melbourne.

    It is amazing to what extent some Sydneysiders will go to try and make Melbourne look bad, they will try and turn just about anything into a negative. Lets take the “European Style City” description of Melbourne. You typically get this, “Melbourne is trying to be Europe, Melbourne will never be Paris”, etc, etc. No one in Melbourne thinks they are living in “Europe” nor are we claiming to be “Paris”. It is simply a way of describing some of the characteristics of Melbourne and it is not unfounded.

    I had some relatives from O.S. visit recently and while in the city one of them said, “Oh, this is like Europe”. I was also talking to a Swedish Backpacker working in a bar in the city recently and they were telling me how they liked the “European Feel” of the city and were surprised by it.

    Melbourne is not trying to be Paris any more than Sydney is trying to be Hong Kong or San Francisco because it is a harbour city and has a large Chinese influence. Melbourne is the way it is because of Hoddle’s grid, first laid out in 1837, the number of significant old buildings, the influence of European migrants and the fact we kept our trams.

    European Cities are on the whole very successful and typically set the benchmark for what a city can be. Melbourne does recognize this and has applied lesions learned in Europe. I do confess we did have some recent help from a Dutchman by the name of Jan Gehl just as Sydney had some help from a Dutchman by the name of Jorn Utzon when building a certain building.

    Sydney will eventually follow as it often does.

    Something Melbourne has perhaps followed Sydney on is self-promotion.

    When I visited Sydney in the 1980’s, I liked the way Sydney promoted its self and wondered why Melbourne made little effort to do the same.

    Since then Melbourne has become very good at self-promotion and it is funny how much of a reaction it stirs in Sydney. It comes across like, “How dare they say that, they should know their place, we are the Global City”.

    “Global City”, if Melbourne is ambitious for using the word “European” when describing its self what is Sydney doing when is says “Global City, Global City, Global City”. Do you think New York or London use that phrase as often as Sydney? Sydney says it so often you could be forgiven for thinking Sydney is shaped like a ball.

    I don’t agree with Mick and others like him that Melburnians are selfish, arrogant and don’t appreciate the rest of Australia, certainly not more than Sydney. Just about everyone I know loves the whole country as much as Melbourne and most people I know who like Melbourne more are people who have moved here from somewhere else. If it is Melbourne that is arrogant, self conceived and selfish? Then why is it only Sydneysiders who will say things like, “Where’s Melbourne”? I have seen that many times.

    The thing is most Melburnians do like Sydney and appreciate its virtues. Sydney is a city that captures the imaginations of foreigners and does best represent the world’s image of Australia. Sydney’s setting is among the best in the world and Melburnians don’t deny it. Sydney is the capital of Australian culture, (though not necessarily its cultural capital).
    What makes Sydney a global city has everything to do with its geography and its image in the minds of foreigners and the fact that it often gets the credit for all things Australian, for those reasons it is unique in the world.

    The reason Melburnians like to engage in this debate is because typically Sydney never pays credit where it’s due and does its best to undermine Melbourne’s image. Some Sydneysiders talk like Melbourne is not an asset to Australia and has nothing to offer anyone. Melbourne is just sticking up for its self. Sydney describes Melbourne as a jealous little brother, if this is true then why doesn’t Sydney stick up for its little brother? Instead it tries to make its self look good by putting it’s little brother down in front of the whole world. If Sydney is the big brother then he’s an ass.

    It is true that some comments from Melburnians about Sydney are unreasonable and untrue and I don’t condone such comments, but Sydney punches below the belt as a matter of course. While we can’t be sure exactly how and when the rivalry started, I do know that when Melbourne became the largest city in Australia and one of the richest in the world due to the Victorian Gold Rush. Sydney liked to call it “Smellbourne” because the city had grown so fast is had open sewers. That’s been Sydney’s tactic ever since, ignore what’s good, just highlight the flaws even if you have to make it up. How ironic it is that Sydney had a problem with poo as a modern city. Is there still any of that stuff still floating around?

    Some Sydneysiders blame their cities shortcomings on bad politicians and imply Melbourne has just been lucky with its leaders. There is a saying, “You get the politicians you deserve”. 1 or 2 bad pollies might be bad luck but when it’s a pattern you have to ask why.

    Sydney can rightly lay claim to having various things better than Melbourne but when I read that Sydney’s CBD is better than Melbourne’s I have to quote Rove, “What the?”
    I’ll admit I don’t know Sydney’s CBD anywhere near as well as I know Melbourne’s but I have walked around in Sydney’s CBD and find it lacking character on the whole. Most of the old buildings have been demolished for carbon copy office blocks and there is a lack of atmosphere at street level. It has about as much charm as an overgrown shopping centre minus the shops. There are exceptions, The Queen Victoria Building and the Strand which are great. I have been to London, Paris and New York and the feeling you get in the middle of these cities is more like Melbourne’s CBD than Sydney’s, of course neither is quite the same.

    Brisbane has a better CBD than Sydney and can teach Melbourne a thing or two. Queen St Mall in Bris’ is the best mall in the country and is typical of the good work being done up north.

    If it is true that Sydney doesn’t care about the rivalry and Melbourne is trying hard, then that is not good news for Sydney as someone who is trying will always do better than someone who is not, regardless of talent. “One should never underestimate their opponent”.

    Sydney says it is better than Melbourne because of its harbour, its beaches and its slightly warmer weather. Then why does Sydney compare its self to London, Paris and New York? They don’t have the Harbour, beaches and warmer weather either. Why doesn’t Sydney put New York in its place? You know, kick it in the ass and tell it who’s King.

    Enough inaccuracies 01.22.06 at 10:36 pm at the top of page made some of these points and others very well.

  42. “true fact by international standards”, The Anholt City Brands Index number 1 ranking for Sydney is a nice little thumbs up but lets be honest, it doesn’t carry much substance. It is a survey of magazine readers, most of whom probably haven’t been to Australia.

    Coca Cola is the worlds No 1 brand and McDonalds is right up there too. As I said, doesn’t carry much substance.

    So while you’re washing down your Big Mac with some Coke thinking how wonderful it is, I will enjoy just about anything else.

    The Taj Mahal is one of the 7 Wonders of the World and what most people think of when they think of India. The Taj Mahal is in Agra and is India’s No 1 tourist attraction but Agra would be nowhere near the best city in India and if it were not for the Taj few people would visit.

    I know Sydney is no Agra and has a lot more to offer than a couple of landmarks but you can see my point that tourists and their fanciful impressions don’t mean much.
    Remember some still think we have no trees and ride on the backs of kangaroos etc, etc.

  43. Comprehensive? You only put your arguments in after I promised to finish with our debate! And you took a whole week to post your misguided rebuttals, yet it was only a day after I had declared it over. Even though Oben also disagreed with me he still showed a bit of respect and was also willing to let it go. I respect him for that. You are a coward, and I’m going to stick to my promise and won’t waste anymore time on the subject, you can believe what you want. Pearls to swine, mate!

    Good point about about the list, though. At least I can remove myself from our debate and compliment you. You are showing what sort of person you are…

  44. Don’t worry about Darkhawk’s ravings, he’s just peeved at the world because I comprehensively demolished and refuted his historically absurd, irrelevant and bigoted attacks on Catholics.

    Come on, the Conde Nast survey was about which cities are interesting places to visit, not the best places to live. Would you really want to live in San Francisco, Cape Town, Damascus, or Bangkok, which all came near the top?

  45. I’ve actually been drinking Fosters and Mercury Dry’s lately. Tassie grog is the best because of the water! But I haven’t been drinking today (why is it such an issue? I’m more coherant than most on here LOL).

    It is good to finally see a Sydneysider revving up us Mexicans (you Yank bastard!), usually it’s a quck broadside and then nothing once they are rebuked. At least this is a debate now.

    I never said our government wasn’t corrupt, give a man power and it will be abused. I just thought it was funny that Mr Cocky Iemma has gotten the arse! He’s made a few remarks about Melbourne lately, especially when Sydney was put on the World Monopoly board and Melbourne wasn’t (but where was it on the Australian Monopoly board?). Childish.

    Elliot’s point was simple but water-tight. Well done!

    CARN THE HAWKS!!!!

  46. true fact by international standards

    and your government isnt corrupt???? sheeesh is that the drunken talk thats coming out off you again darkhawk??? maybe if you stop drinking VB (vaginal backwash) then you’ll probably be abit more sober to know whats going around you.

    just revving you up pal LOL.

  47. Here are my two bits.
    Sydney the place to visit.
    Melbourne the place to live

  48. WOW! A lot of info there in such a short space of time. Probably a better idea to just leave links instead of ‘copy’ then ‘paste’ (Wiki seems a bit familiar, doesn’t it Kate?).

    “True fact by international standards”, someone tried using this poll on the “Melbourne is better than Sydney” Facebook group and this is what I told him (you?): “Sydney Morning Herald, eh? Nice way to glorify an insignificant poll. Also the article mentioned that one of Sydney’s great attributes was that you were close (by world terms) to Melbourne and the Yarra Valley.” Yes the article you put above was from the Sydney Morning Herald and it’s based on the opinions of magazine subscribers, hardly a big deal at all!

    The Anholt City Brand Index thing you mentioned, OK, I’ll give you guys that one, but it is only one of many surveys done and the only one that puts Sydney ahead of Melbourne as far as I can remember. 1/10 ain’t bad, eh? And where’s Iemma now?

    Keep rubbishing the Commonwealth Games, it was never supposed to equal or better the Olympics and I’m sure the budget wasn’t as big, either.

    Ctrl C, Ctrl V Ctrl C, Ctrl V Ctrl C, Ctrl V Ctrl C, Ctrl V Ctrl C, Ctrl V Ctrl C, Ctrl V Ctrl C, Ctrl V Ctrl C, Ctrl V Ctrl C, Ctrl V Ctrl C, Ctrl V Ctrl C, Ctrl V Ctrl C, Ctrl V. Easy plagiarism!

    Plagiarism
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    For other uses, see Plagiarism (disambiguation).

    Plagiarism is the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one’s own original work.

    Notice how I didn’t leave out the souce of this information?

  49. true fact by international standards

    World’s Best Cities Ranked by Travellers

    Sydney is Australia’s number one tourist destination. Around 9.7 million international travellers visited Sydney in 2007, contributing $5 billion to the local economy. Sydney is consistently ranked as the leading international destination by readers of the world’s major travel publications.

    The 2007 Readers’ Choice Awards published by the respected Condé Nast Traveler magazine, ranked Sydney as the world’s best city for travellers for a record 12th time. Sydney was rated excellent or very good by 87.8% of respondents for friendliness, ambience, culture and attractions, restaurants, lodging, and shopping. Sydney achieved category high scores for ambience and friendliness, with Condé Nast Traveler remarking that “no other city so seamlessly blends sophistication with a laid-back devotion to the good life.”

    Sydney’s restaurants continue to make their mark on the world culinary stage, and some have become tourist attractions in their own right. In the UK-based Restaurant Magazine 2008 World’s Best Restaurants Awards, two Sydney restaurants were listed in the top 50, Tetsuya’s (ranked ninth) and Rockpool (ranked 48th).

    World’s Best Cities Ranked by Travellers, 2007 (1)

    City/Country Score (2)
    Sydney, Australia 87.8
    San Francisco, United States 85.5
    Florence, Italy 84.8
    Cape Town, South Africa 83.3
    Rome, Italy 82.8
    Bangkok, Thailand 82.6
    New York City, United States 82.4
    Buenos Aires, Argentina 82.3
    Charleston, United States 82.1
    Damascus, Syria 82.1
    Vancouver, Canada 81.9
    Santa Fe, United States 81.3
    Chicago, United States 81.2
    Venice, Italy 81.1
    Hong Kong 80.9
    Paris, France 80.6
    Victoria, B.C., Canada 80.3
    Chiang Mai, Thailand 80.0
    Melbourne, Australia 78.7

    Footnotes:
    1: Based on a survey of Conde Nast Traveller Magazine subscribers.
    2: Each city was rated as excellent, very good, good, fair, or poor on six criteria: ambience, friendliness, culture/sites, restaurants, lodging and shopping. Criterion scores, which represent the percentage of respondents rating a candidate as excellent or very good, were averaged to determine the final score; e.g. Sydney’s 87.8 is the average of its scores across the six criteria.

    Source: Readers’ Choice Awards 2007, Conde Nast Traveller Magazine.

  50. true fact by international standards

    Sydney voted best city

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    September 5, 2007
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    Sydney might seem more like a security fortress than an ideal holiday destination as APEC rolls into town, but travellers have voted it the best city in the world.

    A survey of 30,000 readers of luxury travel bible Conde Nast Traveller put Sydney in first spot for favourite overseas city, ahead of Paris, New York and Rome.

    Australia ranked fourth in the countries category behind India, Italy and Thailand, while the Great Barrier Reef was named the 10th best island destination in the world.

    Sydney, which ranked third in last year’s survey, impressed travellers for being the most clean and user-friendly city as well as having the best restaurants.

    “I’m delighted that readers of Conde Nast Traveller voted Sydney their favourite overseas city,” Conde Nast Traveller editor Sarah Miller said.

    “They think that it is fantastic for its friendly people but they really adore the varied cuisines on offer, with the city scoring the highest for food.

    “As somebody who loves Sydney, I thoroughly endorse the readers’ choice.”

    Ms Miller said while Australia had slipped one place in the countries category in this year’s survey – the 10th run by the magazine – it still had plenty of appeal for tourists.

    “A past winner, Australia scored consistently highly in all categories but coming out well on top is the scenery and the friendly people,” she said.

    “I must say Australia is one of the best destinations I’ve ever been to, so I thoroughly agree with the readers.”

    The Great Barrier Reef made its debut appearance in the favourite islands category, with the Maldives and Greek Islands claiming the top two spots.

    When it came to rating the best spots to lay your head after a hard day’s travelling across Australia and the South Pacific, Hobart’s Henry Jones Art Hotel came out on top.

    It was followed by the Great Barrier Reef’s Angsana Resort & Spa, Longitude 131 at Uluru in the Northern Territory, Lilianfels in the NSW Blue Mountains and Huka Lodge in Taupo, New Zealand.

    The magazine’s readers voted Sydney Airport as the world’s seventh best, with Hong Kong International in first place ahead of Changi in Singapore and Dubai International.

    Australia’s national carrier Qantas also nudged into seventh place for favourite long-haul airline

  51. true fact by international standards

    MELBOURNE is nice but Sydney is the best, New South Wales Premier Morris Iemma has said as he announced that Sydney had been voted the world’s best city in an international survey.

    It is the second year in a row 2008 Sydney has been named the world’s best city by the Anholt City Brands Index, followed this time by London, Paris, Rome and New York.

    Melbourne, the next best Australian city, ranked sixth.

    The index surveyed more than 10,300 perceptions of the cultural, political, commercial and human assets, investment potential and tourist appeal of 40 cities across the world.

    Mr Iemma was asked today what Sydney could do to help Melbourne improve its ranking.

    “We don’t want to help Melbourne, at all,” Mr Iemma said.

    “Melbourne is a nice place but Sydney is the best – simply the best.

    “If you are not living in Sydney you are simply camping out, as Paul (former prime minister Paul Keating) said.”
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  52. true fact by international standards

    Sydney: global city for the world of events

    Sydney is one of the world’s most appealing and culturally-diverse destinations.

    The city was named the best city brand in the world in the 2006 edition of the Anholt City Brands index ahead of London, Paris, Rome, New York, Washington DC, San Francisco, Melbourne, Barcelona and Geneva.

    Sydney shared ninth place with Bern out of 215 cities in the 2006 Worldwide Quality of Living survey compiled by Mercer Human Resource Consulting. It ranked well above other Asia Pacific cities and ahead of all Australian capital cities.

    Sydney is Australia’s lifestyle and business capital and dominates in film, fashion, music, broadcasting, publishing, games, interactive media, software development, advertising and industrial and virtual design.

    Sydney has world famous tourism attractions and a diverse variety of restaurants, shops and fashion houses, urban and national parks, galleries, museums, cultural centres and beaches.

    Sydney’s world class restaurant scene is enjoying growing international recognition and has become a tourist attraction in its own right.

  53. Sydney VS Melbourne – friendly rivalry

    Sydneysiders have quipped that ‘the only good thing to come out of Melbourne is the Hume Highway’, not realising that the same joke works in Melbourne as the highway links both cities. There has always been a friendly rivalry between the two cities, probably because Melbourne sucks. See how easy it falls from a Sydneysider? It probably originated because Melbourne had a ‘legitimate’ birth whereas Sydney was, if you’ll excuse the French, a bâtarde of a town, due to its convict origins.

    Melbourne has always had a certain dignity and conservatism that Sydney has lacked, which is only something to be proud of if you have it. In the late 19th century both cities competed for national capital status with the southern capital billing itself as ‘Marvellous Melbourne’. This was parodied to ‘Marvellous Smellbourne’ thanks to the open sewers in the 1890s. Sydney would have undoubtedly been peeved when Melbourne won the 1956 Olympic Games and became the country’s sporting capital.

    Of course, Sydney got her own back with the 2000 Games. And Sydney would have nodded knowingly in 1959 when On the Beach was being filmed in Melbourne and Ava Gardner reputedly remarked ‘It’s a story about the end of the world, and Melbourne sure is the right place to film it’. I think, however, that says more about Ava than Melbourne.

    In a game of cards, Melbourne seems to have the trump cards while Sydney’s bluffing.

    Sydney leads with Darling Harbour. Trumped by Southgate. Star City Casino? Trumped by Crown Casino. Leichhardt for Italian food? Trumped by Lygon Street. Chinatown? Trumped by Little Bourke Street. The Golden Slipper? Trumped by the Melbourne Cup. Centrepoint Tower? Trumped by the Rialto. The SCG? No, the MCG takes that one. Central Railway? Not a patch on Flinders Street Station. Haymarket? Would be lost in the Victoria Markets. Live theatre and pub comedy? Melbourne takes another one.

    But wait, there’s a sly grin on Sydney’s face. In a sweeping gesture, she lays down the rest of her cards in a row…

    The Harbour…

    The Bridge…

    The Opera House…

    The National Parks…

    The Rocks…

    New Years Eve Fireworks…

    The Beaches…

    Melbourne passes. Sorry, she can’t take a trick. See, there’s that Sydneysider in me again.

    Incidentally, Melbourne is named after Lord Melbourne, who was Queen Victoria’s first Prime Minister and a wise counsel in guiding the teenage queen through the early years of her reign. I mention this only to segue to a bit of Victorian trivia. Following Victoria’s coronation in 1838, the first act of the newly anointed queen, on her return to Buckingham Palace, was to bathe her dog.

  54. Read the arcticle below … so true about melbourne “self indulgent” cunts.

    =================================================

    MELBOURNE opened its heart to the world last night in a passionate display of pageantry, colour and spectacle that gave the republican movement a jolt — Dame Kiri Te Kanawa sang Happy Birthday to the Queen and led a chorus of God Save The Queen.

    The capacity MCG crowd of more than 80,000 people for the opening of the 18th Commonwealth Games applauded rapturously as Dame Kiri’s last notes died around the darkened stadium.
    An estimated one billion TV viewers around the world watched the ceremony that organisers said was designed to reflect Victoria’s vibrancy, versatility and sporting prowess.

    The opening, highlighted by a flying tram that swept in over the high stadium grandstand, was staged simultaneously at the MCG and along the Yarra River outside the ground.

    Huge, brightly illuminated floats, each one named after Australian fish and representing the 71 countries competing at the Games, sailed leisurely along the river while a surf boat carried the Queen’s baton on the final leg of its long journey to Melbourne.

    The lights on the fish were so bright they even made the dark colours of the Yarra sparkle. There were the inevitable fireworks, dazzling and blinding as always, spectacular moments of theatre, children and young people dancing, and pop singer Deltra Goodrem belting out a song.

    There was also the inevitable question.

    How did it compare with Sydney’s internationally acclaimed opening to the 2000 Olympics? Not so well.

    Sydney was spectacular and simple. It dressed itself in easily recognisable motifs, both here and overseas, of riders in Driza Bones on horseback and local customs. It was egalitarian and pulsed with jingoistic emotion.

    Melbourne’s effort was self-indulgent, more Victorian-centric and sometimes absolutely unfathomable.

    There were planes made of material flying on wires and the theme seemed to be a small boy wandering lost through this kaleidoscope with a pet duck.

    At one stage a poem was recited that ended with: “Little duck, I wish you luck.”

    Later, in a spurt of steam, the duck turned into a woman and she flew away on wires.

    What people in other countries made of giant flying koalas riding what looked like a giant thong has yet to be discovered. There were a couple of ditzy moments as well, including tram conductors in bright green uniforms playing tubas and trumpets.

    Commonwealth Games and Olympic gold medalist Cathy Freeman who passed the baton to champion runner Ron Clarke, then gold medalist Marjorie Jackson-Nelson, now Governor of South Australia, who handed it to the final runner John Landy.

    It was Melbourne’s night and they revelled in the champagne of the celebration.

    It’s just a pity the opening ceremony did not come with interpretation for the rest of the world.

  55. it seems like melbourne people have the same attitude as the americans, arrogant, self conceived and selfish.

    all you think about is yourselves and its all about “me me me”, your too closed up in your own state that you dont know what the fuck is going around oz and the world these days.

    why are melburnians too worried if another city is going to over take them? sounds like paranoia to me? i think everyone in victoria has an inferior complex with this whole rivalry thing.

    wow you had the 1956 olympic games big woooooooooooooooooop that was back in the 50’s and you had the 2006 commonwealth games yeeeah big hoorah (sarcasm) its only a poor mans games thats for sure.

    4 seasons in one day???? what the fuck over???? are you serious???? id rather be on a real beach anyday than what melbourne call the beach located in the city HAHA its a bay you morons.

    and as for your european feel in your city …. theres already a europe and its located in the northern hemisphere.

    Jan is Melbourne and Marcia is Sydney …..god damn it marcia marcia marcia LOL.

  56. why compare both cities? they are totally different!!!!

    I’ve lived in melbourne for 5yrs and yes its quite a nice city with easy access to public transport which surpasses sydney.

    people you all have to remember that sydney is the oldest city in OZ and traffic is congestive at times but thats the big smoke for you.

    Melbourne people i dont know why you have this weird attitude towards sydney that you think you’re better than her??? i just dont get it??? why the hostilities???

    Sydney has its good and bad points and the same goes to melb. melbournians i reckon worry too much about themselves all the time, its not all about coffee shops and little alley ways.

    I’ve lived in sydney for 10yrs, loved the place and the people are helpful and nice. I think the only rude people that i’ve encountered in sydney are people from melbourne LOL.

    If you dont like sydney dont go there no one asked you to go there in the first place.

  57. You are a tool, stop wasting everyone’s time. This discussion is over, not because I concede (in fact I think I have more logical and factual arguments, and a better sense of humour. So really, I win!), but because we have been asked to, and I agreed.

    END OF DISCUSSION, DEAL WITH IT!

    Damn I love Melbourne, I went to the Hawks Doggies game tonight and the city is such a beautiful place. The MCG is definately a World Wonder, especially with Buddy tearing up the turf! Perfect footy weather, too.

  58. I didn’t “berate” JWs nor “personally attack” you or anybody. I merely said that you seem to believe some of the JWs’ characteristic beliefs. If you don’t believe the Wiki article, read the original documents it references. If you are unable to point to any “glaring faults” in it, your assertion that they exist is totally empty. Wikipedia is by no means a Catholic-friendly source, that’s why I chose it. I won’t give you any more links as this site apparently doesn’t like them.

    And while you’re at it you might try to explain, if as you claim, Constantine I was so friendly to the Catholic Church (apparently you are even claiming that he FOUNDED it!) why does the Greek Orthodox Church, which broke away from the Catholic Church centuries ago, call Constantine a saint, but the Catholics do not?
    His mother was a Catholic but he definitely was not.

  59. Simple: I recovered it from the spam filter then I deleted the “what happened?”. The filter is turned up high and is sensitive to links.

  60. What did happen to your post? And what happenned to your “What happened to my comment?” post? Wierd. At least we saw that you got angrier after the first draft and relied more on personally attacking me than actual facts (Wiki is not a reliable source of information, anyone can edit it!).

    You can believe that stuff, I don’t care anymore. Even though I would love to point out the glaring faults in your rebuttal, I declared this to be over and that’s how it should stay. Hope you enjoyed “wasting your time”! I will make it clear though that I don’t have any affilliation with any religious group and do love science. And I was NEVER offended, just amused. I was right when I called you a presumptuous prick!

    BTW, who’s the bigot now (berating Jehovah’s Witnesses, a MINORITY with less than 10,000,000 worldwide)? Hypocrite!

    I just LOLed so hard I shit my pants! Thanx a lot, Ronk!

  61. Custardcrazy, sorry about the interruption. I came here to talk about Sydney versus Melbourne, only to be swamped by a tsunami of bigoted fundamentalist myths from Darkhawk who apparently was mightily offended because I dared to mention in passing World Youth Day. His tirade suggests he belongs to one of the recently invented US fundamentalist sects, most likely the Jehovahs Witnesses judging from his fixation on Christmas and his opposition to science. (I wasn’t aware that fundamentalist sects promote drunkenness.) I have no intention of joining a chatroom with him, such idiots only drag others down to their level. But I did promise to refute here one of his myths.

    Darkhawk, you claim you are certain that your myth of “the 25th December thing” is true, or as you put it:
    “The whole organisation is just the Roman Empire with another name. Catholic means ‘universal’, which is what Constantine (the Roman Emperor) made his new ‘church’ by bastardising pure christianity with pagan beliefs (one tiny example, 25th December is the celebration of the Sun god’s birth, if being close to the northern winter solstice wasn’t enough of a clue) so that he could reinforce his rule over the empire.”

    Catholics have always been well aware that 25th December has probably no more than a 1 in 365 chance of being the date Christ was born. Like most of the Church’s festival dates, it’s ARBITRARY. the point is WHAT is celebrated not getting the exact date right, which is unknown.
    Look up e.g. the Wikipedia entry on “Christmas” to read the REAL history of how this particular date came to be chosen. The main reason being it is 9 months after Christ’s presumed date of death and date of conception, 25th March. (Yeah, yeah I know Wikipedia is part of the worldwide Vatican conspiracy to hide the truth, blah blah).
    Emperor Constantine 1 certainly had nothing to do with it, nor with any other Catholic practice or doctrine. Although unlike his predecessors he allowed Christians to legally practice their religion, he was certainly no friend of the Catholic Church. He even used imperial armies to promote the Arian heretics (who denied Christ is really God) against the Catholics. He didn’t become a Christian until 25 years later when he was on his deathbed, and even then he didn’t become a Catholic, but an Arian.

    Btw “Roman Catholic” was a term of abuse for Catholics invented by Anglicans in the 17th century. It has NO connection to the Roman Empire.

    Btw2, the Catholic Church is certainly NOT “based on the Bible”. It could not possibly be, since the Catholic Church invented the Bible.

  62. Custardcrazy, I only came here to discuss Sydney vs Melbourne. Only to have Darkawk launch into a tirade of stupid fundamentalist myths just because he was affronted that I made a passing mention of World Youth Day. I have no intention of wasting my time in a chatroom with an idiot like Darkhawk (who apparently belongs to one of the recently invented US fundamentalist sects, most likely the Jehovahs Witnesses). He would only drag me down to his level. But I did promise to refute here one of his bigoted myths.

    Darkhawk, you say you’re certain of the truth of the myth of “the 25th December thing” or as you claimed “Constantine (the Roman Emperor) made his new ‘church’ by bastardising pure christianity with pagan beliefs (one tiny example, 25th December is the celebration of the Sun god’s birth, if being close to the northern winter solstice wasn’t enough of a clue) so that he could reinforce his rule over the empire.”

    You do realise that Catholics realise full well that 25th December probably has no more than a 1 in 365 chance of being Christ’s actual birthday? The dates of Church festivals are not articles of faith, they are arbitrary dates chosen to celebrate particular beliefs, in this case the fact that Christ was born. For the history of how this date came to be chosen, see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas

    (Yeah I know don’t tell me, Wikipedia is yet another arm of the evil worldwide Vatican conspiracy to control the world and hide the truth).

    And Emperor Constantine I had absolutely nothing to do with it, nor with any other aspect of Catholic belief or practice.
    Btw although unlike his predecessors, he didn’t actually make Christianity illegal, he was no friend of the Catholic Church. He used military force to support the Arian heretics (who denied that Christ is really God) against the Catholics. And he himself didn’t become a Christian until he was on his deathbed, and even then he didn’t become a Catholic, but an Arian.

  63. Yeah, I was there too and also disappointed for Fev. At least he’ll be remembered as the first guy to be stuck on 99, what a brilliant effort after he was goalless at half time! Now I’m looking forward to the finals, going to my first ever finals game this week.

    The MCG is so much better than the SCG and ANZ stadium!

  64. Hey, I’m through as well…

    Speaking of Hawks, I was ready to run on the ground for Fevola’s 100th… Such dissapointment!

  65. What was your point, Chris? The rivalry between Melbourne and Sydney is a part of our heritage and in the end it’s just a bit of fun. It’s like two siblings, they may disagree with each other and it can get pretty heated, but at the end of the day they both still love each other deep down.

    Competition breeds excellence…

    Custardcrazy, you’re right. I’m finished with what I have to say and it’s up to the other two to work it out for themselves.

    CAR’N THE HAWKS!

  66. Darhawk, Ronk & Oben. Get a room. A chat room.

    **YAWN**

  67. Born in Sydney, lived there for 20 years, moved to Canberra and lived there for 20 years, now living in Melbourne – have done for 6 years. I have visited Queensland on average once a year since I was a child for holidays (holidays dont really count – but I certainly love the place).
    I will always love Sydney because I was born there. (that doesnt count either).
    It is memories (good or bad) that create in your mind a picture of what it is that you like best. Life isnt about a city’s good or bad assets.
    Cities are what they are because of the people who live in them (and yes, who Governs them). What I have are wonderful memories of all of these cities. I love the cameraderie and the fun things I’ve experienced in every city I’ve lived in or visited.
    I just cannot believe what I am reading from my Aussie “mates”.

  68. So what you’re saying is that 1 billion people can’t be wrong? They can in a world of 6 billion! You know, in Noah’s day the whole world, bar 8, was wrong in not beliving him about the impending flood. Plus look at the music charts at the moment, the most popular stuff is utter crap!

    As for what you were saying about the Catholic Church, there is good in it’s fundemental beliefs because it is founded upon the Bible. Unfortunately it’s teachings have been tainted with untruths and scare tactitcs designed to control. If you had a choice of three glasses to drink from; one of pure poison, one with 10% poison and 90% water (or beer, whatever you prefer!), and the third with just pure water, which would you choose? Bad news is you have the 2nd glass being promoted by a seemingly reputable source and, with anything in life, the people who buy into it will try to defend it if they got sucked in, mainly to convince themselves. Even now I’m pointing out the flaws but you and Ronk are doing your best to deny it (yet have put forward no evidence to refute it, just slander). I’ve had a go at people (not here) who believe in evolution, stating scientific fact and philisophical arguments that prove that it is impossible, but they are still unwilling to change their stance. They even deny that Evolution is a religion (it is a belief system, there is no proof that it happened!), so I’m not surprised that I’m meeting such resistance. I am a man of logic and reasoning and NEVER get caught up in sensationalization.

    And just to let you know, most of my recent posts have been while I’m totally sober. As you can see the only one’s I have posted drunk lately were on the 22nd of August. Not that it matters anyway, I’m still 100% right!

    Anyway Oben, on to another subject, I’m looking forward to the Blues vs Hawks game tomorrow night. Going with a Carlton mate so will be good to see both Buddy and Fev get the ton (as long as the Hawks win!). I do like the look of Carlton this year, hope 2009 is a better year, then my mate will stop complaining!

    It is Sydney people that are “blind” if they think their city is better than Melbourne! Let the fight continue…

  69. Darkhawk, you are so blind:
    Yeah, of course there are some pretty wacky and conservative views and values of the Catholic leadership, but seriously: there are 1 billion people who see the good in its fundamental beliefs. Now don’t go saying that we’re all being brainwashed, that is absolute bullshit. I think if the Catholic church was as corrupt and evil as you make it out to be, then the billion strong crowd would have found out and revolted.

    You are sensationalizing; post BEFORE you get pissed 🙂

    Re: Melbourne VS Sydney [everyone], we all have our own opinions and we are all convinced we’re right, it’s never going to end. Lose the stupid stereotypes (no matter how easy and fun they are to point out OPERA HOUSE ASS LICKERS) and try to… wait a minute! No lets keep fighting!

  70. Seriously, you were quick to call me a bigot and a liar but when it comes to refuting my FACTS you’re slower than a hungover monday! I’m sure you’re taking time to manipulate any research you’re doing or just want to hopefully slip under the radar and hope people forget.

    Or maybe your spritual “leader” has advised you not to pursue this because doubt is dangerous to your faith (I’ve heard that one before). Doubt means you question what you believe and that is the only way to find the truth, in anything. I know I’ve been an antagonising, ruthless BASTARD, but in the end I suppose I’m really only trying to help you and anyone who cares to read this. I suppose it’s hard to want to believe someone who’s shouting at you, eh? But when an organisation that claims to represent God ignores the bible, commits vulgar acts “in His name” and invents ideas to keep people in line (like the concept of Hell), I feel like I should get mad!

    Like I said, it’s not the followers I hate, it’s the church itself.

  71. Let’s make it easier for you, the Xmas day “myth” (I refuse to include Jesus’ name because it has nothing to do with him!). Shouldn’t take too long to figure out you don’t have an answer

  72. Not hard to pick one out of four, this isn’t a quiz show. Or maybe you’re just stalling cos you can’t refute them without sounding like a blind follower with no evidence. You’ve had 3 days, now hurry up! I’m still waiting for a laugh…

  73. I asked you to nominate one of your bigoted myths, not 4 of them.

  74. Actually, while you’re at it research why the church says that God is schitzophrenic (the trinity), and how they got the word ‘petros’ (meaning rock) mixed up with ‘Peter’. Jesus is the “rock” mentioned in the bible, learn some ancient Greek and see for yourself!

  75. Hurry up, I haven’t had a laugh in a while so I’m looking forward to your response!

  76. I’m certain of all of it, otherwise I wouldn’t have said it! But, just to humour you, I shall pick the origins of the church itself. And the 25th December thing.

  77. I don’t intend to further derail this topic by refuting every one of your supposed “facts”, though I could easily do so, as could you if you cared to look, drunk or not. So please pick one of your supposed “facts”, say the one you are MOST certain is true, and I will show it is false.

  78. ” I can take the insults and personal attacks, no one gives a shit if you think I’m an arsehole” means that I’m not “furious” about you calling me one. And you accuse me of overlooking details. SHIT HOT, I found another beer! Bye…

  79. Yes, I’m drunk, but I’m still winning this debate because you have nothing to prove that what I’m saying isn’t fact. HAHAHAHAHA!

  80. No, the greatest fact that I stated was that you are a “presumptuous prick”. You can laugh, but you can’t hide! LOL

  81. “Everything I am saying is well informed and factual” – what a laugh. The only 3 facts I can glean from your whole post are that I said it better than you, that Melbourne is better than Sydney, and that you are an a***hole. Can’t understand why you are so furious about me “implying” it when you have already admitted it straight out.

  82. Yes, you did say it better (see, I can be humble), but it needed reiterating (and shortened) before I put forward my formula! Plus I needed to say something to not make my post completely irrelevant.

    I also told you not to throw petrol on the fire, obviously something “you didn’t notice”! Therefore:

    So you say the Catholic church’s “only power” is in it’s following. Are you retarded or something? The whole organisation is just the Roman Empire with another name. Catholic means ‘universal’, which is what Constantine (the Roman Emperor) made his new ‘church’ by bastardising pure christianity with pagan beliefs (one tiny example, 25th December is the celebration of the Sun god’s birth, if being close to the northern winter solstice wasn’t enough of a clue) so that he could reinforce his rule over the empire. You might as well call the pope Ceaser (Pontius, Pontif, same shit)! It is now, as an organisation, the largest property owner in the world and I have heard of people who have visited Vatican City (a coincidence it is situated in Rome?) and been sickened by its display of wealth. Throughout history world governments have had to consult the church before taking any action, with the threat of losing power a consequence. What greater power is there than that in this world?

    As for the gross sexual behavior, what research do I need to do? I read an article about an Australian priest who would act out sexual rituals with a boy telling him that satan was good and god was bad. WHAT SORT OF FUCKING ARSEHOLE WOULD DO THAT? I know that they aren’t the only sick bastards in the world but this is not an isolated incident, you read about it all the time! Does the church aplologise? Only after a lot of public outcry, and even then it feels forced. The worst thing about the Catholic Church, though, is that they say they represent God, but teach lies about Him and the bible and set a bad example by doing FUCKED UP SHIT!

    Can you understand my hatred now? The catholic church is not my only enemy, there are many bastard religions and organisations that abuse their power (Microsoft), but we are only discussing these sick bastards, so I won’t go into that.

    And yes, I do have ‘guts’ because I never tried to hide behind such words as ‘vilification’ and ‘bigot’ to take the moral high-ground. Everything I am saying is well informed and factual but you come back and say ‘maybe you should do some research on blah-de-fuckn-blah’ just because you’ve swallowed some shit fed to you to keep you in line with the church (I’m assuming you have an affiliation with them because you are defending them, why would you otherwise?). I can take the insults and personal attacks, no one gives a shit if you think I’m an arsehole, at least I know that someone will read this and at least question whether what they know about God is actually the truth.

    This isn’t about you or me, mate, this is much bigger, so quit with the “shows what sort of person you are” crap. You don’t know me from a bar of soap, so calling me an arsehole (yes, I know you haven’t used that word but you are definately implying that) makes you look like a presumptuous prick.

    MELBOURNE IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN SYDNEY!!! At least I can stick to the subject (now who’s posting irrelevant nonsence?).

    ROFLOL!

  83. “guts”? You think you’re in some sort of danger for vilifying Catholics? You think the pope has a huge team of IT guys to find out the name and address of everyone who anonymously vilifies him, and sends around a crack team of machine-gun-toting cardinals to liquidate them? Now you actually are being funny. The only “massive power” the Church has got comes from the fact that a billion or so people are convinced that what it teaches is true. No-one’s forcing you to agree with them, so why pretend they are?
    Oh and you might want to look up the facts on such topics as the Church’s relationship to the Nazis and the incidence of kiddy fiddlers inside and outside the church, instead of exposing yourself as an ignorant bigot.

    And in case you didn’t notice, my long post before, which you totally ignored except for my passing reference to WYD, said exactly the same thing about Sydney and Melbourne as you just did, only I said it better.

  84. I’m such an arsehole!

  85. Hey Ronk, the Catholic church is going to be made fun of no matter what, and it deserves it. Kiddy fiddlers, closet satanists, the Spanish Inquisition, giving their blessing to the Nazi’s. Just some of the many evils inflicted by the clergy, and if they are going to make “jokes” like making their symbol the device that Jesus was killed on (the cross, in case that one flew over your head) then they deserve everything they get! I don’t blame its followers, I feel sorry for them for being blinded by a corrupt pillar of unholiness.

    And why can’t I make fun of something? Calling it vilification to make me look like an arsehole was a cunning ploy, but I bet you’ve put someone down before. Actually, you did it to me because I expressed my views. That’s a minority of one (1), so basically that makes you more of an arsehole than I am! At least I have the guts to take the piss out of a MASSIVLEY POWERFUL ORGANISATION in public, get called an arsehole, then take the piss some more! If South Park can get away with it then why can’t I?

    Back to he topic of this page (stop egging me on, you’re just throwing petrol on the fire!), I have noticed that many Sydneysiders like to point out that they don’t even think about the rivalry between our two great cities and it is just us that make a big deal out of it. Thing is though, as soon as there is a report about Sydney being voted ahead of Melbourne in some sort of survey they all jump onto these sites with renewed vigour! That’s to be expected though, us Melbournians are used to our city being placed higher than Sydney, so it must be exciting for them when it comes to their turn. It’s all they have, when was the last time someone pointed out some great things about Melbourne to a Sydneysider only to have them mention a couple of landmarks and some beaches. Their responses are so predictable I have made a formula: X (number of good things mentioned about melbourne), H (mention of the Harbour Bridge), O (mention of the Opera House), B (mention of Bondi), M (number of UMs, AHHs, or ERRRs)

    Y = H+O+B+X*(M – 3)
    where Y is the number of responses from the Sydneysider

    Clever, eh?!

  86. Yes, Darkhawk, that’s exactly my point. Your supposed “joke” is unfunny and nonsensical, whether the target for vilification is Catholics, Melburnians or any other minority. It tells us a lot about you though, none of it good.

  87. All I can say is that I’d have more time for catholics if the pope changed his stance on condoms, aids and Africa. Oh, and as for WYD,that stations of the cross thing where they finish-up nailing some bloke to a cross? Just freaky and a bit sick.

    Melbourne born, Well thank god we don’t have al those bankers down here. makes it a more pleasant place to be. And if all you can do is hang-out for major events in Sydney then you deserve to live there. It takes a lot more to make a great city. Incidentally I met the founder of Match Bar and Grill and Milk and Honey, Jonathan Downey, at his new Melbourne Match (opens in a few weeks) on Friday. he has bars in London, Ibiza, New York and Chamonix. Where does he get his inspiration from? Melbourne.

  88. Mate, I’m not even going to respond to that joke. Mine made sence, not yours. If you did come out with something intentionally humourous (I did laugh at your joke, but not because it was funny), and it was good, I would appreciate it. Unfortunately, you’re an idiot. And don’t assume I didn’t know that the event was going ahead anyway, it only made the news because Nazi boy was there.

    As for “Melbourne Born”, what were you trying to prove with that name? I’m Sydney born and have many connections with that city, but you don’t hear me using that as some sort of qualification that my opinion matters. You have made many assumptions that Sydney people make about Melbourne’s identity and they are rubbish. What sport do you guys mainly follow? AFL is an Aussie institution but you Yanks (if you’re gonna call us Mexicans) can’t embrace it because it was invented in Victoria. Is that showing the Aussie spirit? And your article says nothing about where the better place to live and visit is, does it? By your reasoning Canberra is the greatest city in Australia because it has Parliament House and the majority of “National” monuments, museums, etc (which don’t compare to what Sydney and Melbourne have). So what, I’ve never heard a good thing about the place (except for the availability of porn and fireworks!). Sydney is full of arseholes and the only good people you meet are probably visiting from interstate.

    As for the Olympics, Melbourne’s has a lasting legacy, it is known as the ‘Friendly Games” because it was the first time all nations came together in the closing ceremony, a tradition still held today. What did the Sydney Olympics introduce? Nikki Webster! Also, our events kick the shit out of Sydney’s, you couldn’t even keep the A1, let alone poach the F1 Grand Prix! Melbourne is known for its events , culture, art, sport and food. Sydney is known for a sub-standard opera house and a bridge

  89. Yes of course I would call 20% of the population a minority. And I certainly would correct someone who made the ridiculous claim that a majority of Australians live in Sydney just because it’s the biggest city in Australia (as you did for Catholics because they are the biggest religious group). And if you’re restricting your vilification only to catholic “leaders”, they are an even smaller minority.

    By the way World Youth Day does not mean “the Pope here in Australia”. Sydney’s WYD was planned years before the Pope decided ( a few months ago) that he was coming to it, and WYD would have gone ahead with or without him. Don’t feel too dumb, a lot of Sydneysiders made the same blunder.

    Well “having a joke” at Melbourne’s expense is quite fair isn’t it?
    If someone made a “joke” that:
    “Who give’s a rat’s arse about Melburnians, they make out with the devil anyway. I’m so glad they don’t come to Sydney, but we still have to hear all that crap on the news about Melbourne as if it was something important. Don’t worry, it’s definately not sour grapes that Melbourne hosts many more events than Sydney, I’m actually annoyed that Melbourne people got into this country at all ! They don’t have anything interesting to say. I hate Melburnians”,

    would you find that “joke” amusing?

  90. I was born and bred in melbourne but moved to sydney in Aug 99. Since moving my family up here, i have not looked backed since.

    When Sydney organises an event, they put on the biggest show that the whole world will see. Sydney does it alot better than melbourne does hands down no doubt about it.

    In the past when sydney was still growing, it was looking abit like melbourne, dull and depressing. So, the planners decided to give it more vibe, life and colour. Sydney is in a class of its own, it doesnt copy other nations by their heritage, lifestyle and fake attitude. But, as for Melbourne it hasnt really got an identity, rather call themselves as a European city, come back to mother earth Melbournians! your in OZ not Europe. DUUUUUH.

    Sydney is no doubt the financial capital city in oz, as the article would state below.

    Melbournes traffic is also terrible during peak hour periods, Sydney is a big city and of course the traffic will be chaotic.

    “Having gained ascendancy over Melbourne during the late 20th century, Sydney is now established as the corporate and financial capital of Australia, and is also a very important financial centre in the Asia-Pacific.[5] Sydney has the largest economy in Australia, and there is dispute over the second largest economy between western Sydney and Australia’s second biggest city, Melbourne. Sydney is home to the headquarters of the Australian Stock Exchange and the Reserve Bank of Australia. Of the 54 authorised deposit-taking banks with operations in Australia, 44 are based in Sydney. This includes nine of the 11 foreign subsidiary banks in Australia and all of the 29 local branches of foreign banks. Major authorised foreign banks in Sydney include Citigroup, UBS Australia, Mizuho Corporate Bank, HSBC Bank Australia and Deutsche Bank. Other global banks have established highly successful back office operations in Sydney. Of the top 20 global banks, 17 have operations in Sydney, NSW state government July 2006. This translates as every single foreign bank has its headquarters in Sydney, excluding one and almost 50% of all Australian owned banks are headquartered in Sydney. Sydney also serves as the regional headquarters for numerous multinational corporations. 20th Century Fox has large Sydney studios. Sydney’s CBD is the largest in Australia and also has plenty of satellite cities. One notable Satellite city is Parramatta, which is bigger than some state capital cities, making it Australia’s sixth largest city, succeeding Adelaide.

    Sydney city extends over the harbour bridge, forming North Sydney, a continuation of the CBD; however is considered its own city, adding to the numerous satellite cities in Sydney. North Sydney has a large economy; however it tends to have a high vacancy rate. Just a few kilometres north of North Sydney, is Sydney’s third largest satellite city, Chatswood. Chatswood’s main economy is retail and is home to many highrise buildings, with its own recogniseablee skyline”.

    Just because Melbourne has the big “4” banks, they are nothing compared to what sydney has. Melbourne had the 1956 olympic games “WOOOOPEEEEE” , Sydney brought the olympics in the new millenium. Whilst on the olympic games, sydney showed the world about OZ and this nations heritage, where as Melbourne in the Commonwealth games 2006 showed the world about their arts, cafe culture BOOOOORIIIIING!!!!.

    I for one think melbournians are too worried about sydney too much and cant get on with life.

    Melbourne get an identity and stop calling yourselves a “European City”, theres already a Europe and your never going to be like them.

  91. Both Melbourne and Sydney have around 20% of Australia’s population each, which means that 80% don’t live in Melbourne and 80% don’t live in Sydney, but would you call anyone from these cities as belonging to a minority? Irrelevant stats.

    I didn’t waste your time, you wasted your time. I retract my aplology, the Catholic Church (and many other religions) has a lot to answer for and having a joke at its expense is quite fair, I think. I will never have a go at its followers, it’s the leaders who have disgraced its name. So, grow a sense of humour and stop wasting your time! HAHAHAHAHA!

  92. 26% of Australians are Catholics. From what I recall of my primary school maths lessons, that means 74% of Australians are non-Catholics, and that Catholics are clearly a minority. You didn’t offend me, just wasted my time by posting irrelevant nonsense.

  93. Minorities? It’s the largest religous group in Oz, isn’t it? I’m sorry that I have offended you, though. Probably not the right forum to discuss such things. At least you’re not an evolutionist (Damn I can be a bastard sometimes!)…

  94. Thanks, Darkhawk, I’m sure your pointless blind bigotry is somehow very illuminating to the question we’re discussing. Not.
    And no, being drunk is no excuse for vilifying religious minorities.

  95. World Youth Day? The Pope here in Australia? Who give’s a rat’s arse, he make’s out with the devil anyway. I’m so glad he didn’t come to Melbourne, but we still had to hear about that crap on the news as if it was something important. Don’t worry, it’s definately not sour grapes that Sydney hosted this event, I’m actually annoyed that he got into this country at all when they wouldn’t even let Snoop-Dog in! At least he’s got something interesting to say.

    I hate the Catholic Church…

  96. Having divided my life equally between them and moved between them several times, I think I can be impartial.
    Sydneysiders typically think Melburnians have a chip on their shoulders about Sydney, but in my experience the reverse is true. Most Melburnians go for weeks or months without Sydney even entering their thoughts. But Sydneysiders seem to feel the need to assert loudly and aggressively at frequent intervals “they haven’t got anything as good as THIS in Melbourne!”
    And any suggestion that problems such as traffic, public transport, costs etc are worse in Sydney, is invariably met with the all-purpose excuse “But you have to expect that because Sydney is SO MUCH BIGGER than Melbourne!” which they expect to end the conversation. Newsflash guys, Sydney is only 5 or 10% bigger, and on current growth rates Melbourne will again be bigger than Sydney in about 15 years. But in the minds of most Sydneysiders Sydney is about 200 or 300% the size of Melbourne.

    Melbourne is definitely more “livable”. It is much easier to get around and has a far less sharp geographical division between rich and poor and between “Anglos” and “ethnics”.
    Melbourne has a diverse and eclectic range of attractions which it is constantly working to improve upon. Sydney seems to think it can trade forever on its beautiful harbour and beaches, bridge, opera house and the 2000 Olympics. Great, but you need to be a millionaire to live anywhere near the harbour, and the vast majority of Sydneysiders rarely see it. It’s about the same travel time from Melbourne city to the southern surf beaches, as from Sydney city to Sydney’s northern beaches. Bondi is pretty close to the city, but it’s unbearably crowded, fiendishly expensive and the parking is a nightmare. And Bondi and the other Eastern beaches may as well be on the dark side of the moon to most Sydneysiders as it takes so long to get there and back. The one beach which is accessible by (a long trip on) public transport, Cronulla, was the scene of the race riots. And just about everywhere on the coast of Australia has got great beaches, there’s nothing special about the Sydney ones.
    And even when Sydney had the 2000 Olympics most Sydneysiders did nothing but whinge about it. Now after 8 years of nothing much, they have finally managed to score another major event in World Youth Day, and they’re whinging about that even more.

    Melbourne has fewer days suitable for swimming outdoors. But in Sydney for 8 months of the year you can’t go for a short walk without coming back with your clothes saturated with sweat. Ugh. As for cycling in Sydney – forget it, unless you’re an Olympic athlete or have a death wish (or both, as some discovered recently).

    And for the record, the Yarra is not polluted. (Unlike Sydney Harbour especially after rain when Sydney’s antiquated sewers overflow.) Like the Tiber and many other famous rivers, the Yarra has always been dark brown-coloured right from its pristine mountain sources due to the natural earth suspended in it.

    And as for the “evil black stone churches”?? Who are you, Malac, a Satanist or something? I LOVE Melbourne’s beautiful old BLUE stone churches and other buildings. They seem so much more calm, inspiring and solid than Sydney’s sandstone ones.
    And I love the fact that Melbourne parks, gardens and streets have deciduous trees so you can enjoy all four seasons, including winter when there are no leaves to block the sun’s warmth and light. And Malac, I would not describe “relentless cloudy days (without rain) for so many months of the year” as “bleak” but as just about perfect weather for outdoor sports and activities..

  97. Chris, cesspits? I’m a proud Melbournian but very much like all
    Australian cities I’ve seen and wouldn’t begin to describe any as
    cesspits. I’m glad you’ve found your little niche but maybe you are the
    one who should open their mind. As for gays, they are some of the best citizens you could hope have in your community, (just for the record, I’m
    not gay). What colour is your neck? For a new world country, Australia
    is blessed with attractive cities but it is largely Melb and Syd that cut the cake.
    Your loss you can’t appreciate why.

    P.S. Didn’t you enjoy the opportunity Sydney gave you to explore your closet?

  98. Damn, fixed the spelling mistake too late! That’s what you get when you drink a dozen VB’s in 3 hours, dammit! Shit, I gotta go to work tomorrow. Nighty night!

  99. And you obviously didn’t understand my point, this is Melbourne vs Sydney! Australia is a great country with more to offer than these two cities, but that is not what is being debated here.

    Sydney was the first what? Penal colony? Who cares? Was New York the first city in the USA? Can I have another sentence that doesn’t end with a question mark? Yes! An irrelevant point made there, mate (yes, I said mate, not pal you yank!). A person is not known for who they are when they are born, it’s what they do in life.

    For anybody clueless enough, I’m taking the piss and adding my personal, well informed opinion, so don’t get your knickers in a knot. I’m usually drunk when I post something on here, too! NOW THAT’S AUSSIE!

  100. You obviously didn’t understand my point. The rest of the country has much more to offer culturally, spiritually and visually than the two southern cesspits you are arguing over. I don’t suggest for one second that you, or others like you should move from the small minded rivalry between Sodom and Gamorrah and expand your horizons (and minds) to pollute the rest of this beautiful and remarkable country. As I said, pal, I am not a Queenslander or a Victorian or any other state oriented person. I am Australian, and that encompasses all states and cities. And just for the record, from my point of view, Sydney was first and there is no prize for second.

  101. This is a Melbourne vs Sydney forum and you put nothing in your post that adds to this fine debate. Are you suggesting we all move (or bow down to) Queensland? Not gonna happen! The only thing they have won in a contest is the State of Origin (go the Reds!).

  102. I was born in Perth and I grew up in Sydney and I have worked in Melbourne (and the Latrobe Valley) and am glad I moved to the outskirts of quiet old Brisbane. I think comparing Melbourne with Sydney is much the same as comparing Sodom with Gamorrah. I don’t wish to bring my children up in the gay centre of the universe or the drug capital of the south Pacific. I love the green open spaces of acreage living in a temperate rainforest environment with the pristine northern NSW and Gold coast beaches an hours drive away to the east and the cool mountains and forests a leisurely hours drive south and west where there are clean and clear waters of picturesque rivers and brooks, and wildlife amidst a rural setting. I wouldn’t trade my life and environment for all the culture in Melbourne or all the vistas of Sydney. Both cities have their attractions to different people, but both have their detractions to others. I don’t class myself as being Western Australian or a New South Welshman or a queenslande. I am an Australian first and foremost and am proud of my country and all it has to offer.

  103. I can’t remember who said it but they made a good point. “Melbourne and Sydeny are like their opera houses. Sydney’s is glamourous on the outside but isn’t much of an opera house on the inside. Melbourne, on the other hand, isn’t distinctive in the way it looks but is one of the finest opera houses in the world.”

    In other words, Sydney is all style yet no substance. The fat lady has sung!

  104. Just like to say that the Yarra is a mud pit hole with murky water.

    And who’s ever heard of Eureka and Realito or whatever tower??? (in other words no one gives a shit)

  105. Actually, we need “wet” in the catchment areas. Whenever we have a good downpour it always seems to miss them! I don’t mind the rain now, it’s a special event. That and I don’t use public transport anymore, it’s crap!

  106. Ed why are you lamenting “wet”, when wet is what Melbourne needs right now more than anything!!

    (apart from a beach that is)

  107. It’s lovely weather to be at home with the heater on in front of the telly!

    How do you spell “spel”? Stuff da mistakes, I watched “Monty Python and the Holy Grail” recently so I had to make the comment! That said, the spelling has gotten better lately. If we did a spell check on this forum it would take a super-computer a year to process it! Being drunk doesn’t help, either! Hahahaha!

    It is good to see restraint in these post as far as foul languge is concerned. I have no problem with *&#$’s but it does give an air of civility to this heated debate. Well done, fuckers!

  108. Apart from the freezing, wet bloody weather right now.

  109. Well looks like Melbourne wins hands down

    SUCK DICK SYDNEY
    and this is how you spel “Melbournian”!

  110. uh ho…. Mercer report…. Hmmm now its going to be the Melbourne vs Auckland chip

  111. Ok, fair enough! 🙂

  112. Thanks for making your voice “heared” !!

  113. Sydney doesn’t feel the need to boast? Have you ever seen the “national’ news bullitens at night? Sydney-centric and full of false claims talking up how good Sydney is then omitting anything from other capitals that dispute any claims that they’re better than NSW at something. I suppose I do have a chip on my shoulder and that is the reason why.

    This time I’m going to be a bit more serious as most of the other stuff I’ve written was mainly for a bit of a laugh (although some took it a bit too seriously).

    I don’t hate Sydney, in fact I love it! It’s a very beautiful city and it’s not as pretentious as everyone is making it out to be on this forum. It is world class and a very important city in the Asia-Pacific region. It’s just that most media that’s based there projects the image that it is the ONLY important city in Australia and gets caught up in its own hype. Us Melburnians feel it’s our duty to make our voice heared and let the world know what our city has to offer and dispell some of the myths (not just Sydney’s doing, either!).

    Isn’t IF funny that malac can’t spell “it”? Maybe he is one of the “Knights that say ‘NI!'”.

  114. Isn’t if funny how Melbourne likes to boast about things which make it worse!

    “Our population is growing much faster than Sydney’s because people know it’s a better place to live.” And now the public transport system is in a state of chaos, and traffic is now worse than Sydney in many areas, because Melbourne can’t handle the population increase.

    “We have much less rain than Sydney” Yeah, and now Melbourne is desperately short of water with less than 30% capacity, and planning to increase restrictions, while Sydney is reducing them.

    Melbourne wants the whole world to come & live in or visit Melbourne, just to prove to itself that it is great, thereby making it the World’s Most Unliveable City.

    Why are they so self-conscious? Sydney doesn’t feel the need to boast.

  115. Bloody oath Oben, it’s the reason why Australia has two magnificent cities trying to outdo each other!

    If you have a bad opinion about what is said on these forums, save your time and don’t bother posting. We’re not listening!

    As for Sydney claiming the title of the number one financial city in Australia, we can’t begrudge them of that. They have the main stock exchange and many other buisnesses operating there, but yes, Melbourne is a close second.

    I LOVE BEING A HAWKS SUPPORTER!!!!

  116. It’s an ancient tradition… Just let it continue

  117. Guys… please. Is there anyone here older than, say, 14? Clearly not too many. Sydney and Melbourne each has its pros and cons. Much of the argument being made here is stupid comments based at best on biased personal feelings and at worst a rant from some dimwit early adolescents saying melboorne or sydney iz weey Cooooooooool. Cut the silly ‘my city is better than yours’ crap, appreciate your own cities for its goodness and respect others, AND THEN some intelligent inputs. Seriously, some of the posts are interesting reads but many of them are just juvenile.

  118. Yeah thats true because BHP, Rio Tinto & NAB are all based in Melbourne. But then BHP & Rio Tinto will merge and become the Largest Australian Company and will be based in Melbourne. Wasn’t the Reserve Bank of Australia in Melbourne once?

  119. If Sydney is the business capital in Australia how come the three largest Companies/Corporations are in Melbourne?

  120. The other day the news papers have announced that Melbourne is now Australia’s tourist number 1 hot spot! With tourists people from NSW scared of losing there tourists to Melbourne! lol! But Sydney airport is much bigger than Melbourne’s and does get more airlines and passengers, but Melbourne is upgrading with a $300 million expansion to T2 & possibly T4 for Jetstar & Tiger Airways. One more thing!
    > Melbourne takes nothing for GRANTED!!!

  121. I am a Melbourne person interested in nature, and I think it is a pity that the inner metropolitan area was so transformed by previous generations. It is true that the trees & flora in parks & gardens is much less Australian than any other capital city, and there is a severe loss of native birdlife as a result. Unfortunately, this also means that when all the deciduous trees lose their leaves in the colder months, this does contribute to the bleakness of the cityscape.

    Those old car number plates which said “Garden State” were very revealing. Why did they try to turn Melbourne into a European garden? Why didn’t they just leave it be?

  122. I think “Bleak City” was meant to refer to the relentless dull cloudy days (without rain) for so many months of the year. Also, those evil black stone churches are some of the bleakest things on the face of the planet.

    And, Oben, I don’t think promoting graffiti artists helps give the impression that some Melbourne people may be interested in natural beauty!

  123. I think the majority of Melburnians aren’t the glitzy/glamorous type.
    Melbourne has the best graffiti and street art in Australia! Period.

  124. Melbourne, “A whole city full of people addicted to glitz.” Is that a Joke???
    I thought we were supposed to be “Bleak City”? Make your mind up, your contradictions are exposing the myths. It took many long years to create those myths about Melbourne, careful you don’t unravel them now Herring.

  125. Herring,

    No where for picnics in Melbourne??? I read an article in the news paper a while back on a list of major cities around the world and how much parkland they had within a 10km radius of the city centre. Can you guess which city had the most? It was Melbourne. There are loads of places for picnics, from the banks of the Yarra or the Botanical Gardens to countless parks in the suburbs to the Dandenongs and beyond, take your pick-Nick.

    I have no problem you saying you believe Sydney is the better city for nature and the outdoor enthusiast, particularly in terms of water activities but I strongly disagree with the suggestion Melbourne has nothing to offer and is not even comparable to Sydney.

    It is true that nature is more evident in inner Sydney near the water. It is not true that native birds are uncommon in Melbourne, I see Cockies, Galahs, Rosellas and Lorikeets often, and it is not true that you have to drive 3 hours to get to somewhere decent in terms of natural beauty.

    I too appreciate the beauty of nature and love to escape the city sometimes. I recognize Sydney has great national parks close by and admit that I’m not too familiar with them but you are exaggerating the difference between the two cities and down playing Melbourne’s situation.

    You and Darkhawk have already mentioned the Dandenongs and I don’t doubt what you have said about the creation of the National Parks there. I love the Dandenongs and for me they are a great escape from the city right on suburbia’s doorstep. They are no Blue Mountains but you can take many walks through very beautiful forests that are much closer to the city. I think the Dandenongs are great for a quick fix, they satisfy me.

    The Black Spur is not a “very small area”, yes the Maroondah Hwy only passes through a relatively short section of forest but this is only the tip of the iceberg. From the Black Spur heading east it is virtually forest and mountains for 100s of kms until you reach the Tasman Sea, (check Google Earth). Try driving through the Black Spur then to Marysville and onto Warburton just to get a taste of what I’m talking about. If you want more go from Warburton to Mt Baw Baw and/or Walhalla. Walhalla is fantastic.

    Lake Mountain is near Marysville and offers X-country skiing just 1.5 hrs from Melbourne. Wilsons Prom is my favorite and it is awesome. I admit it is 2-3 hours from where I live but I usually stay at least 1 night so I don’t mind. I’d also hate to think how busy it would get if it was closer to Melbourne.

    Tell me, being that Sydney is bigger than Melbourne and the parks you mentioned are so close, how crowded do they get? Is it easy to get a camp site?

    I won’t claim that Melbourne is the best city in the world for nature lovers and outdoor enthusiasts but we are far from deprived. Melbourne has a lot more to offer than you make out and much closer than you say.

    Herring, you just can’t see the forest for the trees…

    If you” feel trapped” don’t blame it on Melbourne, get out there and discover…

  126. herring: I assume you are talking about Addeds one dimensional summary of Melbourne.

    nowhere nice to go for a picnic?….your kidding right? options are endless……a surf? your kidding again right…Bells Beach major event in the world surfing calendar….Sydney equivalent is what? probably more options in and around Sydney if you can get through the good foresaken traffic from where you can afford to live. And finally “a whole city of people addicted to glitz” from the centre of shallow vacuous celebrity, and belief in your own BS publicity Sydney. Give me a break. I left Sin City a decade or so ago….the single best decision of my life.

    I loved the opening article to this blog….an American food writer thinks Sydney has great food….mmmm…an American….yes that would be right wouldnt it?

  127. Yet again – fashion, restaurants, and gambling; but nowhere nice to go for a picnic (or a surf!). A whole city full of people addicted to glitz.

  128. Wow! That is very useful information! Thanks!
    BTW you forget Tiger Airways!^^^
    i must add that the docklands restraunts aren’t world class but are really expensive to eat! The ice cream shop is nice yumm!

  129. Added, I was with you right until you said “worldclass restaurants in Docklands”. Fuck.

  130. I live in Melbourne and absoulutely love it! Yes our roads are bad but the Brumby government is changing this with the West Gate-Monash development that is going to cost 1.4 billion it will then ease traffic flow and make traffic much smother.
    As comments suggested above^ yes, I do agree that Melbourne is like a European city but isn’t trying to copy! It’s got it’s very own paris end (Collin st)with brands like Louis Vuitton, Chanel, Prada, Cuci and Versace, the Southern Star Observation Wheel (like The London Eye) and Myer is redeveloping it’s Bourke st store into a super new and slek new new york-paris theme with a giant glass ball catwalk room where all of the big names go to show-off their new designs and will change australian fashion for ever!
    Well have you guys ever seen The Docklands? The Docklands is the new Hangout dining place for all locals and visitors with its world class rstraunts and stunning seaside views with boats comming to dock, to top it off the yummy delious ice cream shop at the entrance of the walk bridge, see at night when the city lights up her glory lights.
    Another hots spot is Crown Casino (must say much much bigger than Sydney’s Star city (not to ofend anyone)) it also has world class restraunts and classy buffets like the Conservertory where at night you will witniss the flames light up with fist class seats to see the stunning views out to the yarra. The casino is also homes to thousands of pokie machines as well as many big name brands such as Versace, Burberry & Louis Vuitton. In special events the main room with the glass ceiling is filled with magnificent shows like the stunning Christmas shows and the Flower Spectacular with everything made out of flowers! If you want entertainment then the casino has it to! with kingpin bowling, galactic circus and Village Cinemas + Gold Class!

    How to get to Melbourne?
    Qantas has Flights Daily from; Brisbane,Sydney,Adelaide,Perth,Hobart,Darwin,Canberra,Gold Coast
    Jetstar has Flights Daily from;
    Adelaide,Perth,Hobart,Darwin,Canberra,Gold Coast (Melbourne-Tullamarine)
    Brisbane,Sydney,Perth,Adelaide (Melbourne-Avalon)
    Virgin Blue has Flights Daily from;
    Brisbane,Sydney,Adelaide,Perth,Hobart,Darwin,Canberra,Gold Coast
    Rex & Sky West has Flights Daily from;
    Burnie,Mildura,Mt Gambia,Kalgoolie,Perth

    > Just thought you guys would like to know! lol!

  131. Hey Ed,

    Did you spend five years in Sydney………or was it four?
    Maybe it was 4 but seemed like 5. Next year it’ll be three years in Sydney.
    Judging by some of your mis-guided opinions of Sydney it was probably 5 minutes?

  132. Herring, fair points, you have given me something to think about.

    I thought your initial comment was regarding grid lock and that trams made it even worse?

    Honestly, I don’t live where there many trams, I’m in the north east but I have had plenty of experience with them over the years.

    I do agree with your first point that trams can be an additional inconvenience for drivers on the road and often once you get around them you tend to leave them behind, if you have a fairly clear road ahead.
    I also believe that is focusing on particular situations and ignoring the big picture.

    As I said in my last blog, in heavy traffic the trams are no slower than the cars and possibly faster. In moderate traffic they are more likely to slow you down as you have mentioned. In light traffic you will get around them soon enough as not to be an issue.

    I also think the cars jostling to get around the trams might say as much about the patience of the drivers as it does about the trams. I’ve seen a lot of drivers do all kinds of desperate things only to go nowhere fast, without trams having anything to do with it.

    Also, as Melbourne is a grid and there are many parallel roads, I have the option of using one of the many roads without a tram if I think it will work out better, (that would likely be over a longer distance, over a short distance a tram is unlikely to make much difference to me).

    As for the traffic lights, yes some do have a special configuration for trams but I would not describe the sequence as much longer unless several trams were passing through at once.

    You can not forget that like the cars in front of you, the trams have people in them too and if they were not on a tram but in cars then they would take up a lot more space and possibly inconvenience you more.

    There were news articles recently about how in the last 10 years a 20% increase in traffic had led to a doubling of the time taken to cross the West Gate Bridge and that is on a road with no traffic lights and no end in sight. In other words, small increases in the number of cars on the road can lead to much longer delays. Traffic on roads reaches a critical mass and then any additional traffic has an expotential effect. Trams help to aleveate this problem more than they contribute to it.

    Do you believe traffic would be better if there were no trams?

    Europe and the U.S. are spending big money in the belief that trams are part of the solution. Back when cities were ripping up their tram networks, the belief was that cars and busses were the future busses were more flexible and bus routes could easely be changed. Time has proven this theory wrong and now trams/light rail are being touted as the next big thing? Busses will still be around but more in a servitude role to railed transport.

    Melbourne kept its trams not so much because of some great forsight, but due in part to the influence of the unions at the time, the fact that the w-class fleet was new and out of consideration of the cost of removing tracks from roads. None the less we are lucky we still have them and don’t have to spend billions re-constructing our network. Melbourne’s wide streets were also a significant factor in the decision.

    Did you know Sydney’s network was considerably larger than Melbourne’s is even today? Shame they didn’t keep at least some of it. Could you imagine how cool some of the routes would have been?

    Like I said to you Herring; “Trust me, trams are cool”. Try to see them differently…

  133. And another thing: trams rquire special traffic light arrangements at many intersections, forcing traffic travelling in all directions to remain stopped at a red light for much longer. Buses do not require this.

  134. Well, I was not suggesting that Sydney traffic is better than Melbourne; just that there is little difference, depending of course on what part of these cities one does most of their driving. I must confess I lived on the north side of Sydney where traffic is better than some other areas. Now that I live in Melbourne, I spend 45 minutes twice a day on the Nepean Highway in extremely slow & heavy traffic; every bit as bad as crossing the Spit Bridge in Sydney. Don’t forget that Melbourne proudly boasts the fastest growth of any city in Australia, with 1500 new residents per week, so the situation is rapidly deteriorating.

    Alan, I have a rhetorical qustion to match yours. If it is traffic which holds up trams, and not the other way around, why is it then that cars always frantically pile into the left lane behind a tram, awaiting the first opportunity to get past? Once past, does the tram stay on your tail, or disappear into the distance in your mirror? The difference with buses is that they PULL OVER to stop, so everyone gets past easily sooner or later.

  135. Try living in London if you want gridlock. Having spent four years in Sydney – most of the time in a cab trying to get over the bridge around 2.30pm – I reckon Melbourne traffic flows better.

  136. Dear Herring,

    From reading the forums I have gotten the impression that it is honest Sydney and Ex Sydney Siders that have mostly highlighted the traffic problems in Sydney. Most Melbournians who mention it are only repeating what they have heard.

    I think you might be taking the term “Grid Lock” a bit too literally. Maybe you should think of it as “Traffic Jams” or “Road Congestion” in the case of Sydney.

    As for Melbourne’s grid, across much of the city there are major roads approximately every 1 to 2 km’s running north/south and east/west. While this does mean traffic lights every 1 or 2 km’s the traffic does still move reasonably well in many areas during peak.

    As for alternate routes in Melbourne, within each of the squares formed by the larger roads there are of course secondary roads and residential streets. Anyone who wants to can use these as “alternate routes” as I often have. Sometimes they work out better, sometimes they don’t but being a grid it is hard to lose your sense of direction, plus there is virtually no chance of finding yourself at the wrong end of a one way street.
    Minor roads are also great when riding a bike, they are much safer and the air is cleaner too.

    Personally, I don’t work 9 to 5 and one of the benefits is that I don’t have to face peak conditions on a daily basis but when I have it is usually acceptable where I have experienced it.
    Just so we’re clear, I’m not saying traffic in Melbourne is good, no traffic is good, but going by what I read I doubt it is worse than Sydney. Just about everyone who is familiar with both cities seems to agree that Melbourne’s traffic is more tolerable.

    I don’t believe trams are the problem you think they are. Only in the inner city are they concentrated and at that point it is more likely the traffic that is holding up the trams. As you move further from the city trams are more likely to travel on their own section of road and the majority of roads have no trams at all. Trams also take cars off the road by giving people and alternative to driving, thus reducing traffic. A large tram can carry nearly 300 people, that’s a lot of cars.
    Busses do the same thing but not as well, plus I don’t like them much and polls have shown that car drivers have less respect for busses than trams.
    If you don’t believe me then do a little research. You will find that Europe and even the U.S. (car capital of the world) are planning and building tram/light rail networks at a rate not seen since the early 20th century and all to try and ease traffic congestion. Maybe that is also why Sydney is experimenting with trams? Trust me, trams are cool and so will the planet be if we all use them. 🙂

    I have one question… Being a Sydney driver who knows their way around, what alternate route do you use when you have to cross The Harbor or one of the other natural features of Sydney? Or do you have to join the queue for the bottle neck just like everyone else?

    I hope you have found this informative, Alan.

  137. Melbourne people like to imagine the traffic in Sydney is worse, but they are wrong. It’s Melbourne where you get gridlock, simply because there is a grid! Sydney does not have a grid road pattern; there are many diagonals and curves, so the Sydney driver who knows his way around can always find alternative routes & short cuts. In Melbourne, there is no escape from the main roads and traffic lights. Also, you constantly get stuck behind trams. If you are only visiting Sydney, and you don’t know the tricks, of course you may encounter heavy traffic. But in Melbourne, there are no tricks to learn!

  138. Hawks are lookin’ pretty hot!

    Ducko: You’re right, the west of both Melbourne and Sydney suck! Also, south western ‘burbs of Sydney are similar to south east of Melb… so they’re pretty much on par when it comes to crap suburbs and bogan belts.

    Sydney: Inner West, Melbourne: Inner East. Syd: Northen Beaches (affluent), Melb: Brighton Coast (affluent)… the list goes on.

    The two are different yet the same.

  139. I’m not homophobic, I just like poofta jokes. I am a factory worker!

    Oh, and Oben, Blues are looking a lot better this year, footy’s not the same without a good carlton side. Buddy and Fev battling out for the Coleman should be a beauty this year!

    Watch out Cats, here come the HAWKS!!!!

  140. The Western Suburbs of Sydney are no worse than the western suburbs of Melbourne. Indeed, the western suburbs of Sydney are no worse than any suburb in Melbourne.

  141. I love this rivalry! It makes Australia great!

    I live in Melbourne and I can safely say I’d much prefer to live here than Sydney. What I love about Sydney is the big city-feel, the twisting and winding roads and the double decker trains, but it all comes at a cost. It’s more expensive in Sydney (housing, restaurants etc.), it’s gridlocked every day of the week and most people have to live out in the putrid western suburbs (from what I’ve heard… yes I’m biased). On the other hand, Melbourne IMO is a better place to live. Sure, we don’t have a pristine harbour or a beautiful bridge, but in Melbourne there are dozens of gigs on at pubs and jazz clubs every night, which I know is non-existent in Sydney. We have a proper sport which is a religion here (among many) and I fail to see how league could ever live up to footy. There is a strong arts scene which gives any city a true identity, unlike Sydney which boasts nothing but its restaurants and global-airport.

    And anyway, how can you not resist JOHN SO!!!!
    HE’S MY BRO!

    Melbourne is the best major city to live(proudly supported by Geelong ,supplying us with cars and oil – ’till it runs out o’ course – and putting up with our arrogant street grid) and I’m very proud of it.

    BLUES 08!

  142. Well said Alan.
    Your argument made sense (IMO), as opposed to Darkhawk’s, who seems to have a chip on his shoulder(also a bit homophobic).

    The New York attitude to Sydney may be changing too. I notice that NY Mag.
    Food & Wine included Sydney in its top 10 Food cities. Forbes ( another New Yorker?) did the same last year.

  143. As an American pondering a move to Melbourne, I’ve enjoyed these posts. My lovely wife is a Melbourne native with family there, so that’s where we’re headed, probably next year.

    I have to admit, I’m curious about Sydney, having never visited. It does boast a bigger economy, warmer weather and is arguably prettier than Melbourne. But the measurable downsides of Sydney seem to be heavier traffic, poorer train transport, and higher living costs.

    There aren’t insignificant. As adults spend most of their lives at the office or home, these seem to make Melbourne more attractive. They would suggest more house for your money and a less stressful commute. These are benefits you can appreciate every day.

    Sydney’s harbor bridge and opera house sound beautiful. But unless you can afford to live in view of them, how great an asset are they? If the most frequent glimpse comes while sitting behind the wheel of a car in traffic, I think their allure would pale.

    As for culture, dining, sports and the arts, Melbourne appears to have the lead.

    On weather, Sydney seems to have the edge. But as Alan astutely noted, Melbourne’s “poor” climate is judged by Australian standards — and Australia drew a very lucky hand as far as weather. By U.S. standards — and I’ve lived in San Francisco, Seattle, southwest Colorado, Washington DC and Hawaii — Melbourne’s climate seems very agreeable. It doesn’t get life-threateningly cold in winter. Summers can have a string of very hot days, but are not so warm as to be debilitating.

    I did spend a few weeks in Melbourne in early March of 2005. This was supposed to be the tail end of summer. We had mostly hazy, overcast days with spots of rain and temperatures in the upper teens/low 20s Celsius (mid to high 60s, low 70s). There were a few beautiful sunny days, but yes the weather was unpredictable.

    One other benefit to Melbourne — AFL! You can’t understand what a crazy, fun game this is for American spectators. The rules are quickly understandable — unlike cricket 🙁 — and the frequent turnovers and freewheeling style of play make for lots of drama.

    Another thing, and you may know this, but we when we support a team over here, we say “I root for the Tigers.” My wife still finds this funny after several years in the U.S.

  144. Some people read these blogs and say they are pointless and the Sydney, Melbourne rivalry is stupid.

    I don’t believe the rivalry between Sydney and Melbourne is stupid and I don’t believe discussion on it is pointless. Don’t we live in a world of competition and doesn’t competition encourage people to try harder and achieve more? Like most things, it’s how it’s done that is important. The reality is the two cities do compete with each other and often with other cities as well. So why deny it?

    Should we not take an interest in city we live in? People discuss the intricate details of football for hours and what difference does that make? Others spend hours reading gossip magazines about what “Super Mega Star” went outside with a stain on their top or had a hair out of place, but that’s ok.

    An objective debate about the pros and cons of each city can be an opportunity to highlight problems and learn from each others successes. We can also learn from the experiences of cities overseas.

    That’s not to say I don’t think any of it is stupid.
    I’m not a fan of comments that sound like they came from the high school smart-arse weather they’re aimed at Melbourne or Sydney. They’re embarrassing and annoying.
    Whether its done in fun or more seriously it should be kept real, there should always be mutual respect given to each city.

    I have no problem with someone adding a little tongue in cheek for fun but I do get tired of hearing the same old clichés that are often quite false or exaggerated beyond reason.

    I also don’t believe the rivalry only exists in Melbourne, as some people suggest. I don’t know if there are more people here or there who get involved but I do know there is traffic flowing in both directions. Canberra wouldn’t exist if Sydney didn’t care about Melbourne?

    One more thing, I’ve also seen comments by people who say what Sydney or Melbourne have is nothing compared to what is in Europe and so we should keep quiet. It is true that by foreign standards some things in Australia aren’t a big deal, but how do you make something better without taking an interest and being enthusiastic. Do these people think the marvels of Europe just appeared? No… People made it happen, often by trying to outdo the people over the hill or across the water. They all started with something small and built upon it.

  145. Yes I have been to the places you mention. Still no comparison.

    1. Dandenong Ranges National Park was only created in 1987 – too late to be unspoilt.

    From http://www.australiannationalparks.com:

    “In 1987 the areas of Sherbrooke Forest, Doongalla Reserve and Ferntree Gully were combined to form Dandenong Ranges National Park. Originally used by the Bunurong and Woewurrong Aboriginal tribes, the Ranges became an important source of timber for early Melbourne and much of the forest was cleared. Farming became established late last century as roads and railways were built. The plant communities in the park are remnants of the original vegetation that has receded over the last 150 years with the rapid growth of Melbourne’s suburbs.”

    2. Yarra Valley is just vineyards & farms. Hardly unspoilt nature.

    3. Blacks Spur. Nice, but a very small area.

    4. Warrandyte is not a national park, and is just a small area of remnant forest surrounded by suburban landscape.

    5. Thankfully, I’ve never heard of a Lance Franklin.

  146. I assume that herring has just headed west of the city. A couple of folds in the map and brown grassland. Yep, pretty uninspiring!

    I live in Melbourne’s eastern suburbs and it takes me no time at all to get to the Dandenong Ranges. Head out further and you’ll find the Yarra Valley. Not much further than that is the Black Spur, the most beautiful, lush bush you’ll ever see. Heading north from where I live you will find Warrandyte, all the natural beauty you could want.

    I’m not saying that Sydney doesn’t have great natural beauty, Ku-Rang-Gai National park is quite stunning, and of course, the beaches are beautiul, but you can’t say that Melbourne can’t boast natural beauty equal to that of Sydney’s if you haven’t taken the small amount of time to look for these places.

    Another place you can find natural beauty is at the MCG when Lance Franklin gets near the ball! BUDDYYYY!!!

    I’m naturally beautiful cos I’m a Melbournian!

  147. I grew up in Sydney, and have lived in Melbourne for the last 5 years. There is one simple huge difference which no one seems to talk about. It is summed up in one word: NATURE ! If you are interested in Australian nature, Sydney has a “great outdoors”; Melbourne does not. Sydney is surrounded by beautiful national parks, right on its doorstep, offering superb bushwalking and wildlife-watching, especially the fantastic native flowers and birdlife. To reach any decent national park from Melbourne, you would need to drive at least 3 hours from the city centre. All this beautiful nature overflows into the Sydney suburbs, which are much lusher due to Sydney’s higher rainfall. Melbourne’s dry suburbs and parks offer mostly European trees and a few introduced birds.

    Sydney has 3 major estuarine systems (Pittwater, Sydney Harbour, Port Hacking) giving it a stunning scenic coastline, and offering fantastic fishing, snorkelling, scuba diving, and boating. Of course the real surf beaches add to the nature experience of Sydney. None of this can be found in Melbourne.

    So, after you have had your fill of all the fantastic Melbourne restaurants & cafes, and all the totally man-made entertainment that Melbourne is so proud of, where do you go on a sunny day for a little nature soul food? Where can you escape to in less than an hour where unspoilt natural beauty is free? Nowhere.

    If you are not interested in nature, then Melbourne has everything you could ever want in a city. I am interested in nature, so I feel trapped in Melbourne.

  148. I have a suggestion for Sydney: Change the “Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras” to “Hot Lesbian Mardi Gras”. I’d go to that!

    I don’t know why there has to be a celebration of people who like to put their privates in the wrong hole. Big f%^$ing deal!

    I rock cos I’m a Melbournian!

  149. darkhawk, Love the hawks, especially the chance to see Jeff’s hair in person.

  150. These forums aren’t pointless! Its an expression of passion and a good laugh. Stuff sitting on the fence (unless you like pointy bits up your bottom like “Mardi Gras” Sydney!). I love my city and when it gets ignored and/or misrepresented by Sydney-centric “national” news bulletins we feel like we have to defend ourselves or at least give our voice.

    Oh, and saying these forums are just our opinions is like pointing out that the person you’re talking to has a different name to yours. THANKS FOR THE INFO, CAPTAIN OBVIOUS! If I went to forums for facts, statistics and truth I’d might as well just donate my brain to medical science cos I definately won’t be using it anytime soon!

    I’m not writing this stuff thinking anyone really gives a s#$* about what I have to say (unless they totally agree with me), I’m just having a laugh. If I do get up someone’s nose with something I’ve written then a) I have a good point and they don’t like it, or b) they can’t think for themselves.

    This rivalry is all in good fun, it’s a part of our cities’ heritage and has shaped our country. The only bad thing to come out of it was Canberra. Sydney had a sook about the capital being in Melbourne if we federated, so wouldn’t vote YES unless it was in the middle of NSW. Good one guys, you ended up with an arse-hole on you map! Hahaha!

    I suppose it was good for Melbourne. Have you seen the flies in Canberra? Watch any news report from there and you see them hanging around the mouths of polititians, attracted to all the crap they speak! NOW THAT’S A BONIFIDE FACT!

    GO HAWKS!!!!!

  151. These forums are pointless. And why do people argue as if their opinions are facts?
    Melbourne is not better than Sydney – nor is Sydney better than Melbourne.These are YOUR opinions, which many will agree with & others will not. Time to grow up.
    BTW darkhawk, I personaly cannot stand AFL.

  152. Your right Elliot!!

  153. Matt you may live in Sydney cause you like it but most people live where their job takes them or where their families are and then find what they like/dislike according to their nature.
    It’s really very personal
    Having said that I love visiting Sydney but living in Melbourne
    C’airn the Saints

  154. Not being very objective is the whole point, there is no point to this forum! We all like what we like and thats why we live in the cities we do!!! Australians move around a lot! Like our accents which are much the same all over the country…. An urban/city accent, a country accent… and maybe an outback accent which is the same but slower….. We all expect a good latte… know where to get them in ours cities… know were all the cheap eats are etc etc… unless you can afford the best. Some like the differnces in our cities (me) and some doen’t… I live in Sydney now because I like the beach and convenience of the city…. thats about it.. but I love walking around Melbourne and its gardens. I am having a bit of a game on this since finding this sight. I am sure most of our international guests arn’t interested in the argument.

  155. Thanks Matt, I recognize Melbourne’s weather can be changeable but you are trying to make a point with a somewhat extreme exception there. Or did you make that one up? You could have thrown in a few more variables while you were at it. Either way it’s not very objective.

    I can tell you honestly Matt. Without paying attention to forecasts, I get dressed in the morning according to how it is outside and I almost never find myself inappropriately dressed later in the day. That would be quite a feat in a place that has four seasons in one day.

    By the way Matt, what are you drinking? Any good?

  156. I don’t understand lolol… Ah Sydney, beautiful one day, humbled the next. Melbourne… dry 16C one day then dry 40c the next…. with a scattering of damp moist grey air somewhere between. Hell finding a backroom latte sounds great!

  157. I notice that Sydney has more restaurants that make top gourmet lists than Melbourne. Well done to Sydney, that would have been very unlikely in decades past. However, Sydneysiders who think that Sydney has become the nations food city might be getting ahead of themselves. A food city is not about having a handful of fancy restaurants for the rich, it’s about having a grass roots culture that involves the masses. I believe this is still something Melbourne does better and not just with food, it’s the same with many things. One reason for this is Sydney has the most polarized wealth and Melbourne has the most centralized wealth in the country. This means that in Melbourne more people have more disposable income to spend and that means larger numbers of people getting involved. To make matters worse, the cost of living is also higher in Sydney.

    Ah Sydney, beautiful one day, humbled the next.

    I do like Sydney but just don’t call Melbourne bleak unless you are prepared to call London, Paris and New York bleak as well. Surely Melbourne has better weather than these 3 Super Cities?
    As for the “four seasons in one day” jibe. I’ve never really understood that. I know Melbourne’s weather can be “changeable” but most days finish much as they started.
    What happens in Sydney? Does the weather only change on the stroke of midnight? If it is raining in the morning does that mean it will rain all day?
    The worst thing about Melbourne’s weather is that Melbourne is in Australia and doesn’t compare well by Australian standards and expectations. By global standards Melbourne’s weather is no reason for ridicule, in fact many foreigners prefer it to places further north. But of course a “cultured” person from a “global city” would know this already.

  158. Ummm this is funny but I’ll have a go!… there is no LA (Sydney) come Paris (Melbourne) thing in Australia. I’ve lived in both Sydney (Bronte) and Melbourne (St Kilda), San Francisco 7 years (Twin Peaks) and London (Notting Hill) for 2years. I know Paris and New York well.
    Yes Sydney has dreadful roads due to it being the oldest city in Australia with many of the main streets being there from the late 1700s as a colony and Melbourne has great city roads and freeways due to the fact that people traveled south and built a planned city on a grid (like LA) predominantly built from the Victorian era.
    Unfortunately for Sydney its rapid building during the 50-80 demolished a lot of its Victorian past in the CBD but many of the grand old buildings still exist but are lost in the crowd of more famous modern towers. Macquarie street st has some wonderful architecture some dating back to the 1817. St Mary’s is from the Victorian era and is the largest gothic style stone cathedral in Australia. Most off the inner ring suburbs are Victorian. The Rocks area is older (Colonial) and full off little alleyways and looks similar to Salamanca in Hobart but a lot larger.
    Melbourne’s Victorian buildings are far more visible as the city is spread out more… I love the avenues St Kilda road etc. Flinders street station is also famous and is in a prominate position in the city… I have spent many a day sitting on the steps waiting for friends as a meeting place. But unbeknown to many Sydney’s original Central station and oval driveway still exists it has a huge internal arched area similar to grand central and Victoria station in London…. The stone clock tower was once visible all over the city but blocked out now. Its a beautiful Victorian building. The harbor and 1930’s bridge, and opera house made void all the other virtues and many people don’t notice its there.
    As far as fashion Sydney is more casual… And Fashion and fashion week is in Melbourne but many off the designers that represent the fashion industry in Australia live in Sydney…. So as you see Sydney and Melbourne are not so different.

  159. Yep, Sydney is more well known overseas. My mate and I hung out with a Brazillian working tourist who stayed in Oz for about 6 months and told us a story about coming to Melbourne:

    “Back in Brazil I had only heared of Sydney. When I got here to Melbourne I got on bus at airport and went to sleep. I woke up where I was getting off to stay and regretted ever coming here.”

    “Soon I found out this wasn’t the city. It was Clayton!”

    Not long after he moved to St Kilda and fell in love with Melbourne. He always commented on how “beeeautiful” it was and how much fun he was having. We all enjoyed March in St Kilda, the Grand Prix was on, the footy was just beginning and the weather really shows off what Melbourne can do meteorologically! We’d always have great times with people we meet, getting around town was easy by public transport and the international visitors attracted to our city were always praising the great city of Melbourne!

    The culture down here poos all over Sydney’s (I’ve been there many times). I’ve never experienced that sort of atmosphere and adulation whilst in the harbour city. As the brazillian later told us about the Harbour Town, “Sydney is more beeeeautiful than Melbourne, but I like it here much better!”

    As for the gangland killings, at least it made a kick-arse show ‘Underbelly’! Hmmmm, that’s a good point about living in Sydney though, you can watch it without having to download it. But then again, you can do that in Hobart!

    Last, but not least, is the superiority of our sporting culture. Sydney will NEVER be able to better Melbourne at that, just as Melbourne can never take the title of ‘Australia’s First City”. The reason: AFL! I cannot understand how Sydneysiders (and Brisbanites) can’t embrace it. I suppose Sydneysiders can’t stand the notion of loving something that’s Melbournian and Queenslanders love to kick the crap out of NSW at something, but other than that it baffles me! AFL followers are passionate about it and this make it easier for us to embrace other sports (I CAN watch lawn bowls at 2 AM!). Also, the very first Cricket Test AND One-Day International was held at the MCG. Not just in Australia, but the WORLD!

    Oh, and as for putting in a reference to tastebuds, as this article was food related, VB is the nectar of the gods, Toohey’s is dick juice!

  160. Beezneez, I’m missing all those Gangland killings but I guess at least you can watch them on TV in Sydney

  161. Long live Sydney vs Melbourne rivalry. I’d better say upfront that I am a Melbournian and got plenty of laughs out of this article just after the Comm Games.

    http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,18478017-5001021,00.html

    Notable quotes were…

    “The lights on the fish were so bright they even made the dark colours of the Yarra sparkle” – I guess that’s a compliment, cheers DT…

    “How did it compare with Sydney’s internationally acclaimed opening to the 2000 Olympics? Not so well.” – weren’t they both choreographed by the same person? Correct me if I’m wrong…

    “There were the inevitable fireworks (“inevitable”, nice touch for a city where the fireworks are never “inevitable”, overhyped and predictable), dazzling and blinding as always, spectacular moments of theatre, children and young people dancing, and pop singer Deltra Goodrem belting out a song (guess Nikki Webster would have been better, eh?).”

    Alright, enough of that. I’ve gotta admit that I don’t know what that f***ing duck was all about. Plus, Darling Harbour is great and there’s more landmarks and less gangland killings in Sydney. But that’s it…

  162. B Flash Lovin' Funk

    People please, you’re sight seeing in the wrong hemisphere, Oprah’s House is in LA…

  163. I have seen so many of these sydney versus melbourne things and never replied but maybe I should. I grew up in Sydney and moved to melbourne 5 years ago. I love Melbourne and have now bought a house, getting married to a Victorian etc. What I love about Melbourne is the food scene, the music scene and the pub scene. i spent years in Sydney goign to bars and nightclubs i hated but lovelovelove them in melbourne. Ditto for the food in Melbourne which I think is more accessible and more affordable – however Sydney is more beautiful and has a lot more natural beauty, and i really miss the beaches. Both cities have their advantages and I think I only hear this Melbourne vs Sydney people from melbourne people – Sydney love visiting Melbourne for the food and shopping. So get over it everyone and enjoy both cities for what they have to offer!

  164. oh my god!!! many things about this both cities…
    i am spanish guy going to melbourne…i heard many people talking that is better, so..in a few days i wil tell you whats goin on about the two cities that everybody talks…
    justttt the big jump

  165. lets see
    negatives positives

    sydney = over crowded
    roads r small and shit hot chicx
    crocroches in blaktown mad clubs
    tooo humid and hot good beaches
    disorganised
    rude people
    old train stations that needs work
    wasted lands and dumping places
    too expensive

    Melbourne = stylish
    cool weather,
    vibrant,
    classy,
    good roads
    nice people

    and therez no negatives, and only thing sydney got going
    for is booring oprah house and habour bridge, thats all it will ever remebered for loolz,, after staying there for a week, i missed melbourne soo much, sorry if i offended anyone, but thats the trueth. peace out

  166. Its funny. In the 19th century it was Melbourne that was the brassy upstart. Brisbane, Perth and Hobart are older and Adelaide is only a year younger than Melb. Anyway, I used to spend a lot of time in Sydney, and enjoyed the chaos, but generally things are usually just that little bit better in Melbourne. Also, this “global city” B.S has gone to Sydney’s head. It used to have a good natured larrikin streak (ie- Paul Keating – self educated and not pretentious, very admirable), but now is full of w–kers that think that the only measure of a person is ambition and money and weather they can afford to send their disgustingly spoilt brats on a school excursion to Europe or America. Sadly, some of that w–nkery is now washing off on Melbourne (especially, in places like Brighton – but they’re not real Melbournians). Really, though, on the whole Sydney has come to be over-run by such people since 1990, but Melbourne isn’t – yet. Once upon a time Sydney’s shallowness was just a light-hearted joke, now it is a reality. To illustrate the essential difference between Sydney and Melbourne, compare their outlook: Sydney looks to London, Paris, New York, Tokyo, the world centres of globalised, corporatised, franchised boredom. Sydney is obsessed with its place on this totem pole (the bottom, too bad!). Pretentious, ignorant and so, so predictable. Indeed for Sydney, Australia starts at Bondi and ends in the Blue Mountains. By contrast, not only are Melbournians proud of the rest of Australia, they look out to the World!

  167. I hail from Tasmania.

    In recent months (wanting to relocate) I spent alot of time in these two cities; to observe, explore and compare. I’ve visited both cities in the past, albeit when I was younger, but insufficient funds and lack of time meant I could never quite experience what both cities had to offer.

    Sydney is beautiful. But that’s not enough. For me, Melbourne wins; it has culture, an atmosphere and an overall substance that has made me fall in love with the place.

    I’m moving there in October.

  168. I’m moving to Greenland – global warming is going to make that place into the new Tassie.

  169. And with global warming Tassie is just going to keep on getting better.

  170. Vive la difference!
    And the bonus of this inevitable argument is that a healthy rivalry gives us the perfect excuse to enjoy schadenfreude. Keep it coming.

    But back to the original thread, Melbourne is definitely good bang for buck when dining out, but even better used to be Tassie, with great produce at even cheaper prices. There are now some excellent venues there which would be on par with Melbourne & Sydney’s favourites, but prices a beginning to nudge past Melbourne’s.

  171. Sydney=Supermodel, beautiful to look at but no substance
    Melbourne=Stylish, cultured and confident.

    And.. why should we bother about comparing the two when true Melburnians are busy comparing wheteher the North or the South of the Yarra is better personally, i’ll take the North anytime:)

  172. I’m told Sydney has much better concrete security fences and security clampdowns.

  173. Sydney Is Just Better In Everything

  174. It is possible to find beauty in the most mundane of places. What you personally love is dependent on your disposition. Where you love to eat can be determined the same way, as is whether you consider yourself lucky or happy or both.

    If everyone preferred the same city and the same restaurants we’d obviously be in strife, but the beauty is in the differences: just as when we love someone, we love their failings bundled in with their strengths; so it is with our cities, don’t you think?

  175. Oh please, bloody idiots of Sydney and Melbourne.
    If you have to make a mockery of a city, that would be Brisbland for its blandness and the most despicable hole of them all, Canberra!

    Although, I concede how I hate Sydney for being so selfish and forcing the nation to create such a hideous source of national embarrassment, Canberra!

  176. all that people that remember of sydney is its bridge and opera house and the crowded beach of bondi!! melbourne has so much more to offer!!!! yer mayb globaly people no sydny more, but melb has soo much more to offer!!! you can dig deeper and deeper to the city and find sooo much! and even in the suburbs!!

  177. Sam, that’s a very flattering comparison. Manchester is a beuatiful city full of Victorian splendor and is a real cultural hotspot.

  178. Just came back from a trip to Melbourne. People say Sydney is ugly but go up the top of Rialto Towers in Melbourne and that tells you it all. It tells you that Melbourne is a manufacturing and industrial city (similar to Manchester), the Yarra River IS very dirty (very brown), in the middle of their sporting village they have an ugly bunch of railway lines (cutting in between the MCG and Rod Laver Arena), as well as all the new ugly looking buildings going up which is now starting to congest the city (less open spaces). Melbourne is a master at blowing its own trumpet but you cannot ignore the fact that scenically it is very depressing. This is a fact. Building alleyways and trying to imitate London or New York will not change this.

  179. Giddyup, so true

  180. “how can all you people live in Melbourne! I swear, it as 4 seasons in one day! It is always overcast and cold in winter and in summer it is unbearably hot!”

    wow, you’re original. did you come up with that all by yourself? personally i wouldnt mind being a tourist, visiting melbourne and experiencing all 4 of melbournes season in one day. saves time, doesnt it? to do other things and see more of melbournes beauty.
    secondly, “cold in winter and in summer it is unbearably hot!” haha, really? coz its usually hot in winter and freezing in summer, isnt it?

    “Trust me, Sydney dominates the cities in Australia (why do you think it is listed up there with world cities like Paris, London and New York!)”
    i think you need to check that. melbourne came equal first with vancouver in the worlds most liveable cities. ;]

  181. Lived in Sydney for a year, that was more than enough.

    Here are a couple of choice quotes from the latest Good Living in the SMH. Yes, these words were written by a Sydney-sider, the rest of the article is worth a read too.

    “Sydneysiders know the anxiety that arises when friends from south of the border come to visit. Where could you possibly take a Melburnian out for a drink in this town, accustomed as they are to an excess of impossibly hip little hole-in-the-wall wine bars, hidden laneway gems and converted terrace houses full of fabulous furniture and quirkily-dressed hipsters?”

    “Even so, there’s no real heat in this debate yet. Melbourne still wins hands down. The richness of Melbourne’s scene should put Sydney to shame. Or rather, it should shame the NSW Government, which has drafted licensing laws with all the bureaucratic logic of soulless bores who hate grown-up fun.”

  182. Nice to see the debate running as ht as usual guys. Just hearing the news of yet more chaos on the Harbour Bridge I think I know where I’d prefer to be and that’s Melbourne. It is simple really. The planners need to blow up the bloody bridge and build a proper big one that has enough capacity to keep going even if a train driver does fart.

  183. Ok, listen.
    I am a Sydneysider and (although this is obvious) I prefer Sydney COMPLETELY over Melbourne. (Note: I have been to Melbourne plenty of times). Firstly, how can all you people live in Melbourne! I swear, it as 4 seasons in one day! It is always overcast and cold in winter and in summer it is unbearably hot! Sydney has lovely weather, yes it may get more rain, but that doesn’t mean its 4 degrees every time it rains. Secondly, Sydney has so many more things to do! Melbourne is dead, the CBD is so small, the only positive of Melbourne are its sexy little cafes, but that’s it! Trust me, come and live in Sydney for a month, you wont want to leave! Another point is that Sydney has so many different suburbs, all unique in their own ways. You have the Northern beaches, Lower North Shore, Greater Sydney, West and East. With Melbourne, it is just the same everywhere! Trust me, Sydney dominates the cities in Australia (why do you think it is listed up there with world cities like Paris, London and New York!)

  184. Another one to add to the list of Syd vs Melb.
    Annual rainfall in Sydney 1107 mm
    Annual rainfall in Melbourne 655 mm

    Sydney has the Opera House, Melbourne has the Opera. i.e. Sydney is all show, Melbourne is all substance.

    I’ve lived in both cities and as far as restaurants and bars go (because that is what this thread is about, not beaches) Melbourne wins hands down.

    If you want beautiful, uncrowded beaches with crystal clear water, go to Perth.

  185. Alls I got to say is (Almost the same wage level, but a hell of a lot cheaper living)

    More disposable income to enjoy life.

  186. I hate myself for even entering the fray of this puerile, childish and reeking of inferiority complex ‘debate’. There are only 2 things I readily admit to envying about Melbourne – your public transport system and your bar scene. It must be said, though; the recent spate of new bars in Sydney have gone a very long way in bridging that gap. As for the supposed focus of this blog, ie food; well … Happily for me, Tetsuya’s does not even rate half a mention as a foodie’s mecca in my book. Overpriced and overrated. There! I’ve said it. Shock horror. But, for every Vue de Monde, there’s our Marque, there’s Claude’s, there’s Guillaume at Bennelong. Not to mention Quay, Rockpool, Becasse, Balzac, Pier and Est. and a whole host of others. And, my dears; I would not boast about a restaurant that wants to emulate its super Michelin starred counterparts in Europe, but can’t even get its name grammatically correct! And this despite it having been pointed out to Shannon squillions of times. No, being stubborn is not clever, its not being ‘rebellious’, its just silly. Oh, he can cook, no doubt about it, but so can dozens of others. Mr Wickens at Interlude and Andrew MacConnell would get my vote in Melbourne. As for the person who’s boasting about ‘prestige imports’ – well, exactly. They’re imports. And where’s Rockpool from? Guillaume? You’re also not exactly getting Nobu himself at the stoves. Franchised restaurants remain precisely that. Its also you who were so excited about Longrain opening in Melbourne. The owner of your Sakura (Flinders Lane) wondered why there are practically no sushi ‘trains’ in Melbourne. Oh, sorry. Silly me. Of course, its because Melbourne is soooooooo European, whereas Sydney is merely full of Asians, to paraphrase another one of your erudite entries. How cosmopolitan of you. Personally, I am just happy and thankful that my friends and I enjoy ourselves immensely each time we visit each other; and are mature enough to understand that the 2 cities are different and we love them for what they each have to offer …

  187. its never ending this rivalry… lets just agree to disagree!

  188. I love Melbourne, my home for the last six years.

    Sydney is showy and glitzy, yes. But it’s where I was born and spent most of my life. I am bored shitless by people bickering about which city is better.

    You know what? You can eat better food and live a much quieter life in Melbourne. But Sydney has her charms as well. Depends on what you want from life I guess.

    You just can’t afford to eat in those big name places. Glad I live down here where 100 bucks buys you and your partner a VERY good night out.

  189. I want to clear up some misconceptions.

    1.Melbourne has a population of 3.7 Million compared to Sydney’s 4.25 Million.

    2. Melbourne is growing by 49,000 people per year, whereas Sydney by only 38,000 per year, suggesting Melbourne is growing faster.

    3. Melbourne has grown faster than Sydney percentage wise and in numerical status for the last 6 years consecutivley.

    4.Melbourne averages hotter days in summer than Sydney, and experiences longer sunshine hours during our summer months due to the dry, warm to hot mediterranean type weather. Sydney on the other hand is hot and humid with afternoon storms.

    5.In summer the sun sets at 8:45pm and twilight in Melbourne is at 9:30pm.

    The latest the sun sets in Sydney is 8:10pm and twilight at 8:45pm. This is due to Melbourne being further south.

    5. Sydney is the denser city, but in the last 6 years Sydney built 18 skycrapers over 90m whereas Melbourne built 47 skyscrapers over 90m. Much more than Sydney.

    Melbourne is the class act of Australia, Sydney is the popular girl in school.

    My analogy is this:

    The most popular girl in high school ends up either pregnant or working some shitty job at sports girl, whereas the less popular and quiet girl usually blooms into a successful flower in later life.

    Melbourne is that girl, and in the future you will only see how Melbourne will change and continue to change, while Sydney remains the same looking out to its harbour with the same old landmarks.

    peace out. Much love.

  190. re: I love Sydney

    “If you paid me one million dollars to go and live in Melbourne I would not do it. I would actually do all that I could no never ever live in Melobourne.”
    Ok, well you’re an idiot. No one would give up a million bucks like that.

    “It is soooooooooooo dull. I went there last year in the SUMMER and every day the sky way grey.”
    How about this, I LIVE in Melbourne and have done so my whole life. Ever Summer the average temperature is 30 degrees. The skies are never grey. I don’t know what happened to you. (Except for Christmas last year. It rained for 4 days straight) But back to the point, I noticed we hotter days than Sydney, in Summer. We have 3 months of hot weather, 3 months of cool weather, 3 months of cold weather and 3 months of warm weather…just like you’re supposed to ^o).

    “It is soooooo ugly and there are no beaches that are EVEN half-way decent.” Actually, Melbourne has CULTURE unlike your city which is just full of asians. We have a wide variety of DIFFERENT cultures. Our city is beautiful, have you even seen the view from The Rialto or The Eureka Tower? I didn’t think so…
    As for our beaches, where do all the pro surfers come to surf for Roxy Comp (or whatever its called)? BELLS BEACH, that’s right. Where is it, I hear you ask? IN VICTORIA. NOT NEW SOUTH WALES. Not even Queensland. Trust me, you need to go to Torquay, Venus Bay, Sorrento and Bells Beach before you ever make a stupid judgement like that again.

    “Sydney also is the home to Home and Away which is WAY better than boring old Neighbours!”
    I’m pretty Neighbours is much better. Neighbours is not only watched but LOVED by England. You didn’t know that? Oh poor you, poor, poor you. Ask anyone in England. They’ll recite ever episode to you. Ask about Home & Away and they’ll be standing there scratching their heads.

    Back to weather though, I remember going to Sydney in November last year for the long weekend (Melbourne Cup Weekend). My family wanted to go away for a change, so we went to Sydney. From the amount of criticism Melbourne got from Sydney, about our weather, I was expecting Sydney to have Californian weather. I was sadly mistaken. It rained for 4 days straight. The whole time we were there. I know what your thinking…[you were there for 4 days!!] yeah so what? You bag Melbourne for being grey and wet, the rain in Sydney didn’t even stop for a breath break. I also watch the weather everyday, I see the report for the Nations Weather. Sydney is never much better than Melbourne. I’m sorry to burst your bubble.

    I’ll also add that Melbourne was named The World’s Most Liveable City.

    Are you jealous, Sydney?

  191. I think that Sydney is wayyyyyyyy better than Melbourne. If you paid me one million dollars to go and live in Melbourne I would not do it. I would actually do all that I could no never ever live in Melobourne. It is soooooooooooo dull. I went there last year in the SUMMER and every day the sky way grey. It is soooooo ugly and there are no beaches that are EVEN half-way decent. Sydney also is the home to Home and Away which is WAY better than boring old Neighbours!

  192. I’ve lived in both cities (for years at a time), and to be honest, I love them both – and for different reasons. I detest waking up so cold that my bones hurt which happens regularly in Melbourne, but I also detest coughing so much from the smog in Sydney. There is no doubting Sydney’s three main draw cards – the Opera House, the Bridge and the Harbour, however, one can’t discount Melbourne’s Restaurants & Cafe’s, Sporting and harmonious cultural society. Someone mentioned above that Sydney was set up as a gaol – true, however, it should also be said in the same sentence that Melbourne was only created to stop the French. Both cities, to me, are fabulous! I love the fact that people are so passionate about their home town! But seriously, we should drop the comparisons of Paris, New York, LA etc. etc. – both cities are beautifully unique in their own fabulous ways – and they compliment each other so well. Image if both were the same – boring!

  193. re. re. Whine much

    “I’ve lived in Melbourne my whole life, been to Sydney about 6 times in my whole life….I haven’t even heard of half of the places you listed in your well…list….”

    Well, whats your point then? I don’t know if you realise this, but your arguing like a right fool. You’ve been to Sydney SIX, read it, SIX times, as compared to living your whole life Melbourne (you poor, poor soul), so perhaps thats why you havent heard of those places? DUH.

  194. You know, for all the civility and posh attitude that you Melbournians are trying to create, in this comment list at least, you’ve really just undid all of that. All you people are doing is making yourself look like a pissy younger sister who’s dissing the older, better one just because she holds the titles.

    Look, yes, currently you may have the titles of culture hub and sporting capital of Australia, but these are all changeable things. Sydney on the other hand was created first, it is first, it will ALWAYS be first in terms of the creation of cities in Australia. It’s also got the oldest and most prestigous university, buildings and landmarks. Sydney also has an amazing Harbour, you cannot deny that. Melbourne on the other hand has the Yarra, big woop. I’ll take the Harbour over the Yarra and the Thames anyday. Whereas Sydney can grow and eventually claim these culture hub and sporting capital titles from Melbourne, Melbourne can’t actually grow a Harbour or somehow become the first city.

    And to the last commentor, what a great way to reveal your stupidity by saying that Melbourne has a brain because it can make up its own suburb and city names. Do you really think that all your names stem from original thought? Look on your map, all of those names are English names stupid. They’re all copied, just like Melbourne, Perth, Adelaide and Sydney. All our cities names are copied from English cities, places or people.

    But seriously, do you really think you can compare Melbourne to London? Come on, you don’t even have the population or the scene.

    Also, atleast Sydney isnt trying to copy another city. We are the Harbour City, that’s what we are, you on the other hand, are just trying to copy the European cities. That’s great, but you will eventually be forgotten and become generic, we won’t. We own you, you can’t deny it. You might have more cultural highlights or whatever and sporting events, but the rest of the world doesnt know that. The rest of the world instead sees Sydney. Face it Melbourne, when the world looks to Australia, it doesnt see you, it sees Sydney.

  195. REPLY to WHINE MUCH?

    Oh, and you Sydneysiders can stop stealing names from England;
    Newcastle, Manchester, Macquarie. Please, come up with your own. Atleast Melbourne has its own brain.

  196. REPLY to WHINE MUCH?

    I’ve lived in Melbourne my whole life, been to Sydney about 6 times in my whole life….I haven’t even heard of half of the places you listed in your well…list….

  197. Ha! Ha! Ha! Melbourne women? Pretty? PLEASE! Melbourne women are hairy wogs.

    Sydney is remembered for:

    Opera House
    Harbour Bridge
    CentrePoint Tower
    Having the most beautiful natural ampitheatre in the world.
    2000 Olympics
    Beaches
    The Rocks
    Garden Island Naval Dock
    Sydney International Airport
    Powerhouse Museum
    Mrs Macquarie’s Chair
    Taronga Zoo
    Royal Botanic Gardens
    Manly Ferries
    Hyde Park
    National Maritime Museum

  198. Ha! We print that type of stuff in our papers because we have a SENSE OF HUMOUR, ever heard of it? Everyone know that Sydney is Australia’s, if not the worlds, most beautiful city. Sydney is older thatn Melbourne, Sydney is the financial, food, and business captial of Australia. And comparing Melbourne to Singapore and Paris, ha ha! They are NOTHING alike.

    No-one said Mary is from Sydney. And, if Melbournes so great, tell me why Australia’s main navy base is here? Tell me why Sydney has the Opera House and the Harbour bridge? Oh, I know. Because were better than Melbourne, and we know it.

  199. Okay kids, let’s find out once and for all which is the better city. Check out this website called Stand By Your Town – you can actually give a place a score out of 10 and then leave a rant and a rave saying why that place rules or sux. Sydney is currently trailing well behind Melbourne, so Sydneysiders, get in there and do what you do best! http://standbyyourtown.com/australia/nsw/sydney

  200. Ok. sydney has a city twice as large as melb. and also is more dense and more populated. but what difference does that make? is a bigger city the better city? Melbourne has a older skyline but also bursts with with new mdern buildings. such as eureka tower. Also melbourne has the larger building. Sydney transportation system is shit! seriously its way down the bottom on the worlds transprtation list. unlike melbourne has an extensive network. such as trams railways subways and an excellent freeway and road system. sydneys is really bad. theres not an actuall freeway that feeds past the city. Yes sydeny has the better CITY! looks. but anywhere out of bondi sydney CBD or manly. then its a shit hole! but then theres brisbane who thinks there on the top of world cause there gettin a new long tunnel. who gives a shit! Even though its the fastest growing city after melb. and sydeny is tugging behind. oh yer trust me if you go to the west suburbs be sure take a gun, always lock doors, NEVER leave children in the cars alone, and dont wonder the streets alone! i would no coz i livd in blacktown for 3 years

  201. It’s simple. Which city has won “Worlds most liveable” on more than one occasion? – Melbourne. Sydney was set up as a gaol – convict stock, Melbourne was settled and planned civilly.

  202. Chris you are right on the looks – i spent five years in Sydney. but i think you need to scratch a little deeer to see what a city is really about and if you do that melbourne has to win. the Sydney CBD is dead at night, for instance.

  203. Every city has their bad suburbs, but we’re talking about the ‘city’ here.
    It feels more viabrant than melbourne’s.
    Sydney is far more visually beautiful than melbourne and also Sydney is much denser in the actually city area with a sky rocketting population, will be another 30,000 higher in 3 years.

  204. MarvelousMelbourne

    Competition only brings and drives more edginess and hence higher quality, Ed.
    That’s an ever inevitable consequence.

  205. You are right, it will be pretty amazing when all the restaurants open at Crown but I wonder what it will do for the rest of Melbourne’s fine dining.

  206. MarvelousMelbourne

    Restaurant-wise, I guess Melbourne simply wins hand-down in every category, be it low, mid or high end eating. Which Sydney’s best could possibly beat Melbourne’s Vue De Monde now?
    Tetsuya’s is without doubt the best Sydney has to offer but it falls short of Vue De Monde.
    Plus take into account the fact that Nobu will open its first branch in Crown Casino this year.
    Now Sydney ppl, tell us if you can possibly have the answer to this prestigious import ?

  207. Jarrod, all good points but i am biaised towards Melbourne. Cheers

  208. all that people remeber of sydney is its bridge and oprah house, and its crowded beach!! thats all sydney has to offer!!!! i also feel so acostrophobic in sydney, and i feel like theres nowhere to open space!
    unlike melbourne theres so much free space everywhere!

  209. Melbourne is way better then sydney. Sydney is congested with traffic all the time! one day we went for a drive to the city and we were just before the ANZAC bridge and we waited 1 hour and 45 mins just to get over!!!! Ill admit sydney has better beaches but there are more dangers at their beaches take Bondie for example, its crowded and to small.
    The western suburbs of syndey is disgusting!trust me i know, cause i lives there.Melbourne has a more structured freeway where you can get to places fast and quick. Melbournes skyline is beutiful, and can be seen from just about anywhere in melbourne. pffft sydnes star casino can never compare to CROWN CASINO as it is 10 times the size of star city.
    Sydneys skyline makes sydney look a like a lovely city, but its actually a rude congested nightmare! Melbourne beets sydney by far. and hey im not just favouring melbourne cause i live in perth!

  210. Dave
    Good points and the same goes for Melbourne – seek out those little places in the side streets. i was recently in Sydney and enjoyed the backstreets of Surry Hills very much – Bottega and, shit I can’t remember the name of it.

  211. I work as a chef in sydney and coming from London I find that the food is much more enjoyable because of the casual atmosphere in resturants in sydney bring plus the fact their its quite cheap to eat in sydney if you know where to go much like melbourne , although the article has brought up some of the great resturants in sydney i’d like to point out that icebergs overlooking bondi beach is quite exspensive for what you get not to mention you’ve got to know a member to get a table. Even though you talk about the best and most exspensive. you should try the many resturants down side streets that are talked about in quite whispers cause they usually serve the best food at the best prices

  212. Sydney is the ‘World’ in one city.

    Melbourne is ‘Euro’ city.

    Brisbane is Red neck city.

    SYDNEY ALL THE WAY! MWAH

  213. Sydney is the world in one city full of go-getters & jet-setters. Its fabulous, out-there and exciting!!

    Melbourne is lovely but pretentious as far as ‘Europe’ goes.

    Give me the REAL DEAL anyday!

  214. u r all stupid. u cant compare the 2 cities – they r completely different. Ed said sydney is like LA – totally not true…..LA hot and balmy and has lots of smog whilst sydney is hot and balmy but hardly has any smog (except on rare occasions). Enough Innacuracies went on about sydney having ugly women – from his comment, it seems to me that men from melbourne seem to think about only one thing – rooting anything that looks pretty. and there is no way u can say that “women r ugly from sydney” and “melbourne women are hot hot hot etc” as there r so many women in both cities that there r both hot and ugly women in both (believe it or not mr melburnian). anyway, melbouring is to organised – has no problems except that ur DOCKLANDS PROJECT WAS A COMPLETE DISASTER!!!! every picture i’ve looked at (and believe me, that’s alot) has had no people in the development. anyway……. as i said before, sydney and melbourne r completely different and u cant compare them. Sydney has proper beaches (with actual warm water and waves) whilst melbourne has windswept frozen beaches which r only slightly hospitable if u swim with a windcheater – i noticed when i went to melbourne on my last visit a couple weeks ago that EVERYONE was wearing a wind cheater whilst no one in sydney does. but i do have to admit – melbourne is a nice city (too flat) – and also sydney too!!!! opera house u cannot compare with anything in melbourne at all and the harbour is SPECTACULAR no matter what the weather. Harbour Bridge is also very nice and beats West Gate Bridge hands down. Melboururnians go on and on about the MCG but u never here sydneysiders go on about TELSTRA STADIUM (aka stadium australia and also olympic stadium) as well as the rest of the olympic park – easily compares with all the sporty arenas in the MCG vicinity. Melbourne also not organic enough. – sydney has random laneways (yes, thats right melburnians, sydney also has laneways with people, restaurants and cute little galleries – just not so many in the CBD – but actually found in the inner city area – especially kings cross, potts point, paddington, surry hills, darlinghurst etc. anyway, melbourne has a massive advantage over sydney becuase it has generally had much better leaders – sydney has been stuffed around its entire life u see – very sad, but has given sydney its own (NON LA) character (at least in the inner west, lower north shore, manly area, eastern subs, and city) which is very laid back.

    But a big thing many people dont realise – sydney and melbourne are completely the same basically once you venture forth out of the inner areas – melbourne has posh eastern urbs – sydney has posh harbour lining and north shore and hills area – melbourne has sprawling western suburbs – same with sydney.

    the natural beauty of sydney (however stuffed up in places) cannot and never can be beaten by melbourne – sydney pacific coast is lined with long craggy cliffs and palm beach way the houses are almost built into them on precipitous overhangs – same with bondi.

    about the airports – sydney is much busier (by about 8 million passengers) and gets many more international arrivals and very soon sydney will be the only city in aus. to be served by a european carrier (austrian airways pulling out of sydney and melbourne and i think BA has already pulled out of melbourne but has stayed in sydney – also virgin atlantic flies to sydney)whilst in area, melbourne is twice as big – sydney airport ten minute drive from city (which is why there is the curfew – to much noise pollution for bulk of city to sleep at night – courtesy of genious sydney government) whilst melbourne airport out in no man’s land on the fringes of nowhere.

    i might add as well that the underground stations in Sydney’s CBD are like 40-50 yrs older than the ones in Melbourne. Sydney also has 15 underground stations (soon to be 18) whilst melbourne only has 3.

    melbourne has trams and sydney is trying to put them back in (thanks once again to sydney’s lovely goverment they were torn out during the 50’s and 60’s).

    sydney is also officially the business capital and has a WAY BETTER SKYLINE THAN MELBOURNE

    melbourne’s too sparce – has two big clusters down towards rialto and up towards spring street with eureka standing alone in the middle – highly nervewracking skyline in my opinion. but seriously, Sydney’s is way better – has the density and is spread out nicely – though i dont like the way alot of the cbd looks like its not there because the ground slopes down to far. (the whole area from WORLD square to Central is missing). Sydney is also much older and has a much more exciting history

    anyway, i am a sydney sider (my english is usually alot better, but since im not at school and doing something fun, who cares!!!) so this comment does sound a bit byist but i love both city’s because of their different identities, their uniqueness, their querks (sydney has more), and they r both two really great cities (though both need to be alot more less dearer especially sydney)

    AND FACE, HOW BORING WOULD IT BE IF AUSTRALIA’S TWO MOST EXCITING CITIES WERE EXACTLY THE SAME – VARIETY IS GOOD

    i love sydney more though

  215. u got to choose melbourne. im only 15 years old and get to city very easy. just onto train straight to flinders in no time. then catch free city tram and get any wer in CBD. visit federation sqaure. victorian market. telstra dome. rialto tower. MCG, Crown Casino, londale and lygon street. what else could u ask for. a big bridge and an opera house. i can just catch west gate bridge or sing in my shower:)lol public transport in melbournes the best. Also new 6billions underground tunnel being built for better transport and another tunnel to connect 2 major freeways/highways. :D.
    and sydney people say melbourne is a wet city. and bloody brisbane and sydney get more rain the melbourne.lolz

  216. Stefan von Reinhardt

    Oh come on this is just puerile… apples and oranges anyone?

  217. I might be moving to Australia in October for studying. I am having problems chosing between Qeensland Brisbane and Melbourne is it what u also call Victoria??

    Someone help me, i luv the sun, hate winter, luv big city life, making friends,i am social, i might also be needing apart time job ..(student thing)

    Will i get all these in Sydney.?

  218. Nice one. Did they wear the paper bags?

  219. London has the Thames, Melbourne has the Yarra. London has Lords, Melbourne has the MCG, London has Wimbledon, Melbourne has Rod Laver Arena, London has the Steeples, Melbourne has The Melbourne Cup, London has the British Grand Prix, Melbourne has the Australian Grand Prix, London has Wembley Stadium, Melbourne has Telstra Dome, London has the underground, Melbourne has trams, London has Hyde Park, Melbourne has the Botanic Gardens, London has the houses of parliament, Melbourne has Parliament House, London has Victoria Station, Melbourne has Flinders Street, London has London Bridge, Sydney has the Harbour Bridge, London has The Albert Hall, Sydney has the Opera House. Is Sydney known for anything more than for just two things?

  220. enough inaccuracies

    Ed,
    I’m only getting started.
    Having lived in Melbourne for 40 odd and commuted to Sydney weekly the last 3 odd I have got a certain affinity with Sydney. I hate it.
    Everything from the humidified Town Hall station to people who go home at 2pm on a Friday to get away for the weekend.
    The laziest bastards on earth I tell you, and seriously, the ugliest women no question.
    I worked with guys drooling over female colleagues with bodies like godesses but heads like buldogs (the females not the males). What is it with Sydney?
    Give me a hot Melbourne chick any day. Face of an angel, body to die for, flaunts the body like an exotic dancer and roots like a rabbit. Could you ask for more?
    What is it with Sydney? If they live in Roseville you would swear they think it is Toorak. It’s like South Yarra. 50 year old flats for $600K…….
    Next week I am taking a packet of paper bags. If they won’t wear them I won’t root them. That simple.
    Yep give us a blog on Sydney vs Melbourne and I’ll cream ’em, no question

  221. Have you thought of starting a Melbourne vs Sydney blog. Could be very funny and get a lot of attention from both sides. BTW I completly agree although I’m not so worried about the potato scallop thing – they’re also called that in the north of England.

  222. Can someone answer me this..
    Why can’t I buy steamed dim sims at a fish and chip shop anywhere in NSW?
    Why do I have a choice of chicken salt or plain salt for my fish and chips and when did chickens learn to swim?
    Why is it that everywhere in the world I can buy canteloupe but in Sydney I have to buy rock melon?
    Why do I have to order a potato scallop in Sydney but a potato cake in Melbourne?
    Why is it that I have to fly out of Sydney before 10.30pm?
    Why do they still collect money at toll booths when they could use E Tags and keep traffic moving?
    Why do they build two lane tunnels so that when there is an accident, they close both lanes?
    Why does Darling Harbour have the biggest cockroaches on earth?
    Why are the harbour bridge and the opera house, the only two things people remember Sydney by?
    Why do NSW and Qld seriously follow rugby when the other four states couldn’t give a rats?
    Why aren’t cars built in Sydney?
    Why does NSW have ugly yellow number plates?
    Why do Sydney men have their necks connected to their shoulders?
    Why do Sydney women have gorgeous bodies but ugly heads?
    Thank you.

  223. Enough inaccuracies

    I get more and more agitated when I read Sydney letters’ comments criticising other states. It is childish to write them but I question why newspapers print them. Is it an inferiority complex?
    Last week there were comments printed about Victorian registration plates. Another letter printed was about Melbourne being “ancient” because it runs trams. Why not just say that Sydney does not want trams? Another tried to compare Sydney with Paris, London and Singapore as if they have something in common. They don’t. Yet another letter was printed which commented on green slip registration payments in NSW being 5 times that of Queensland. The writer then lowered himself by stating an irrelevant and unsubstantiated comment that that “we all know how bad Queensland drivers are….” I have yet to see a similar printed letter in a Melbourne newspaper. Would we ever be that shallow and feel that inferior?
    I agree with the above heading though and I Melbourne is like New York while Sydney is like LA. Absolutely correct. I love New York but I hate LA.
    I love Paris because it is like Melbourne. I love Singapore because it is like Melbourne. I love London because it is like Melbourne. I love Melbourne because it hasn’t rained for 16 days out of 20 this month. I love Melbourrne because we have three months of blistering heat followed by three months of Autumn, winter, then spring. I love Melbourne because no matter how you look at the weather statistics from the Weather Bureau, for the last week, month or three months, Melbourne has plain good weather. Over the last three months, Melbourne had 700 hours of sunshine, Sydney had 600. Melbourne had 24 days of rain. Sydney had 40. The average temperature of the two cities was 0.9C apart. So let’s drop the bleak city tag.
    Maria Sharapova said not one hour ago that today was the hottest day she had experienced anywhere in the world. (Today and yesterday were 43C) More is expected later in the week at the Melbourne, Australian tennis Open.
    I don’t particularly mind Sydney but I do mind the constant put downs when they are unsubstantiated, factually incorrect and often made from ignorance.
    I would like to compare Melbourne to Sydney with everything from opening hours of airports to dry cleaners who open on Sundays. To live theatre and bars, to nightclubs and restaurants, from parks to sporting arenas to international events to house prices. From public transport to home ownership to salaries to disposable incomes.
    I don’t like to compare the two capitals but I have no choice but defend inaccurate comments with facts. Melbourne is Australia’s first national capital. Melbourne is not running second to Sydney’s Olympics by staging the Commonwealth Games. Melbourne had the Olympics 50 years ago….Victoria is not Mexico. It is not more bleak in Melbourne than Sydney. It doesn’t rain more, it rains less. It has more sunshine hours per year and lower humidity. It has exactly half the rainfall. It has a mulitcultural society without race riots. It has a world class fire service which NSW calls upon every summer. So please let me enjoy living in Melbourne without the predictable comment when I visit Sydney “Oh you brought the weather with you” Please give me something to be positive about because I do actually like your city. But one more thing. Princess Mary of Denmark is actually from Hobart, studied at Monash Uni in Melbourne before working in a Melbourne advertising agency, but we aren’t claiming Mary is from Melbourne. So can you oplease stop claiming on your news bulletins that Mary is from Sydney……..

  224. Yes actually you are right.I just back to istanbul from Australia and had a wonderful food and wine experience in Melbourne and sydney But there is a huge difference e between sydney and melbourne.Sydney is a big city cosmopolitan and expencive.Food is much creative and restaurants are much better disayn than melbourne.But melbourne is also a big city but you dont feel it and restaurants are very casual which is nice for me food is alwasy very good good quality ingridents that they are using but biggest difference is in melbourne wherever you go to eat in a fine dining restaurant or a small cafe to eat thay you know you are not going to dissopointed of the food .I love melbourne and i would love to live in there and to get some work experince .I am 27 years old from Turkey and i am a qualified chef.All the best and happy new year